Author Topic: Getting the mash to 170 degrees  (Read 1075 times)

Offline kevinsimons

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Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« on: April 03, 2018, 07:45:28 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 07:50:51 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

Greetings kevinsimons - according to BeerSmith, 16 pounds of grain at 155 degrees F will need 3.25 gallons of water at 175 degrees F to increase the mash temperature to 170 degrees.  Without knowing all the exact particulars of your concern, that’s the best I can offer.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 08:01:22 PM by KellerBrauer »
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Offline denny

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 08:03:54 PM »
When I try to raise temps via infusion I use boiling water.  That said, there's a good chance you don't need that mashout step anyway.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 08:05:52 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

I've never gotten to 170 F either.  I typically use 190 F water or thereabouts, which only brings temperature to roughly 160-ish.  I think we should be using boiling water to get there.

If you're going to immediately runoff then bring up to a boil, then the mashout doesn't matter anyway.  Mashout is really only useful if/when we need to delay the boil for several hours or days later, which is rare.
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Offline BrewBama

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Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 12:46:49 AM »
You’re not doing anything wrong. I batch sparge and after the first run off (with no mashout), I strive to get the grain bed to 170*F +/-  a couple degrees. This past weekend I hit 168*F.  Close enough.


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« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 12:50:47 AM by BrewBama »
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Offline vpsihop1

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 06:31:52 AM »
Mashout? Meh, it'll get to 170F in the kettle, ;D  just make sure you can hit your mash temps

Offline James K

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degree
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 08:57:40 AM »
Most times when when I mash out, or sparge, I feel like I barely raise the mash temp, even if the water is boiling. I’ve never played around with calculating how much water, at what temp, to add, to get a certain temp. Most importantly the starting temp is what I am aiming for, which is think is much more critical. I do like to do a very hot rinse after I have transferred to kettle though.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2018, 12:06:23 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

The equations popularized by John Palmer for boiling infusions are useful here:

Vadded = ( ( Tdesired - Tcurrent ) * ( ( 0.05 * R ) + Vtotal ) ) / ( 212 - Tdesired)

Obviously the 212 in the denominator is boiling water. The 0.2 from the original equation changes to 0.05 so that we can use gallons instead of quarts.

There are a few assumptions you have to make here:

1.) Your current temperature is accurate, i.e. most people just use the temperature they mashed at in the calcs when it may have dropped lower over the course of the mash;

2.) That you are still at 212 degrees when you add the water.

So for your case:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 155 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 212 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.52 gallons of boiling water

Let's try to apply a real world fudge factor here and assume that you lost 2 degrees over the course of the mash and that the boiling water cools a bit to 208 before infusing:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 153 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 208 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.90 gallons of boiling water

A mashout is beneficial IF you get it into the 172 range and HOLD it for at least 10 minutes. Without bogging down anyone with the science behind it, the mashout/mashoff is a foam-enhancing mash step and holding it for a duration of 10+ minutes bolsters the production of compounds known as glycoprotiens, which are foam positive.
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Offline denny

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 03:52:39 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

The equations popularized by John Palmer for boiling infusions are useful here:

Vadded = ( ( Tdesired - Tcurrent ) * ( ( 0.05 * R ) + Vtotal ) ) / ( 212 - Tdesired)

Obviously the 212 in the denominator is boiling water. The 0.2 from the original equation changes to 0.05 so that we can use gallons instead of quarts.

There are a few assumptions you have to make here:

1.) Your current temperature is accurate, i.e. most people just use the temperature they mashed at in the calcs when it may have dropped lower over the course of the mash;

2.) That you are still at 212 degrees when you add the water.

So for your case:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 155 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 212 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.52 gallons of boiling water

Let's try to apply a real world fudge factor here and assume that you lost 2 degrees over the course of the mash and that the boiling water cools a bit to 208 before infusing:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 153 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 208 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.90 gallons of boiling water

A mashout is beneficial IF you get it into the 172 range and HOLD it for at least 10 minutes. Without bogging down anyone with the science behind it, the mashout/mashoff is a foam-enhancing mash step and holding it for a duration of 10+ minutes bolsters the production of compounds known as glycoprotiens, which are foam positive.

I have found that those aren't even in the ballpark if you mash in a cooler.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 04:19:10 PM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

The equations popularized by John Palmer for boiling infusions are useful here:

Vadded = ( ( Tdesired - Tcurrent ) * ( ( 0.05 * R ) + Vtotal ) ) / ( 212 - Tdesired)

Obviously the 212 in the denominator is boiling water. The 0.2 from the original equation changes to 0.05 so that we can use gallons instead of quarts.

There are a few assumptions you have to make here:

1.) Your current temperature is accurate, i.e. most people just use the temperature they mashed at in the calcs when it may have dropped lower over the course of the mash;

2.) That you are still at 212 degrees when you add the water.

So for your case:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 155 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 212 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.52 gallons of boiling water

Let's try to apply a real world fudge factor here and assume that you lost 2 degrees over the course of the mash and that the boiling water cools a bit to 208 before infusing:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 153 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 208 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.90 gallons of boiling water

A mashout is beneficial IF you get it into the 172 range and HOLD it for at least 10 minutes. Without bogging down anyone with the science behind it, the mashout/mashoff is a foam-enhancing mash step and holding it for a duration of 10+ minutes bolsters the production of compounds known as glycoprotiens, which are foam positive.

I have found that those aren't even in the ballpark if you mash in a cooler.

Right. You need to account for heat loss in the mash and heat loss in the boiling infusion for it to be accurate.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 07:41:23 PM »
Right. You need to account for heat loss in the mash and heat loss in the boiling infusion for it to be accurate.

I think Denny was pointing out that you also have to account for the heat capacity of your mash tun.
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Offline denny

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 07:59:23 PM »
Right. You need to account for heat loss in the mash and heat loss in the boiling infusion for it to be accurate.

I think Denny was pointing out that you also have to account for the heat capacity of your mash tun.

Yep.  And that cooler is built to resist temp change
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2018, 06:04:09 PM »
Right. You need to account for heat loss in the mash and heat loss in the boiling infusion for it to be accurate.

I think Denny was pointing out that you also have to account for the heat capacity of your mash tun.

Yep.  And that cooler is built to resist temp change

One thing I've been accounting for is the actual temp of the "boiling" water. The difference between 212 and 208 can make a huge difference.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 06:07:56 PM »
Right. You need to account for heat loss in the mash and heat loss in the boiling infusion for it to be accurate.

I think Denny was pointing out that you also have to account for the heat capacity of your mash tun.

Right, which is obviously one of the thermodynamic "hand waves" that Palmer used to simplify the equations. I'm just saying mostly that the assumption that most people make is that the water is at 212 when they infuse. I can only speak for myself, but there is a lag from heat off to infusion for me and the water is usually around 207-208 by the time I infuse.

That obviously makes a bigger difference than the oft quoted drop in mash temp.

I'm open to suggestions and conversation about it though as i'm experimenting with a cooler again for step mashing.
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Offline hackrsackr

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Re: Getting the mash to 170 degrees
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 06:08:52 AM »
I can't seem to get a 155 degree mash (16 lbs. grain, 4.25 gals. water) to 170 degrees without adding a huge amount of water to mash out.  I added 2.5 gals. at 195 degrees and only got to 166 degrees.  I'm pushing the limits of my 11 gallon mash/lauter tun.  What am I doing wrong?

The equations popularized by John Palmer for boiling infusions are useful here:

Vadded = ( ( Tdesired - Tcurrent ) * ( ( 0.05 * R ) + Vtotal ) ) / ( 212 - Tdesired)

Obviously the 212 in the denominator is boiling water. The 0.2 from the original equation changes to 0.05 so that we can use gallons instead of quarts.

There are a few assumptions you have to make here:

1.) Your current temperature is accurate, i.e. most people just use the temperature they mashed at in the calcs when it may have dropped lower over the course of the mash;

2.) That you are still at 212 degrees when you add the water.

So for your case:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 155 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 212 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.52 gallons of boiling water

Let's try to apply a real world fudge factor here and assume that you lost 2 degrees over the course of the mash and that the boiling water cools a bit to 208 before infusing:

Vadded  = ( ( 170 - 153 ) * ( ( 0.05 * ( 4.25 / 16 ) + 4.25 ) ) / ( 208 - 170)

Vadded  = ~ 1.90 gallons of boiling water

A mashout is beneficial IF you get it into the 172 range and HOLD it for at least 10 minutes. Without bogging down anyone with the science behind it, the mashout/mashoff is a foam-enhancing mash step and holding it for a duration of 10+ minutes bolsters the production of compounds known as glycoprotiens, which are foam positive.

Pretty sure that the temperature for a glycoprotein rest is 72c or 162f, not 172f. In the alpha range, not the mashout. Only reasons I’ve ever heard for a mashout is enzyme denaturing and easier lautering.