Author Topic: Invincible Rumors  (Read 3021 times)

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2018, 11:46:04 AM »
The truth of the matter is that all commercial concepts apply at the homebrew level as that is likely where we got them from.

I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing proposition.  I think some things are applicable and some aren't.
I don’t think that is what he is saying.

Right.

The point is that everything is relevant to us (substitute “isn’t relevant” for “doesn’t apply” in the “what’s commercial doesnt apply in homebrewing” retort) and all we need to do is modify to scale or modify for environment to apply it.

EVERYTHING is relevant to us while not everything DIRECTLY applies from large to small.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 11:48:51 AM by Big Monk »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2018, 11:53:39 AM »
The stuff that isn't relative to me is stuff like precisely hitting specs and consistently reproducing the same flavors. Or missing my ABV window. Or having to dump $2k of beer because of a contamination, or... not dumping it because the payroll is coming. But all of the process is either relevant or at least intetesting.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2018, 12:57:15 PM »
The truth of the matter is that all commercial concepts apply at the homebrew level as that is likely where we got them from.

I don't see why it has to be an all or nothing proposition.  I think some things are applicable and some aren't.
I don’t think that is what he is saying.

Right.

The point is that everything is relevant to us (substitute “isn’t relevant” for “doesn’t apply” in the “what’s commercial doesnt apply in homebrewing” retort) and all we need to do is modify to scale or modify for environment to apply it.

EVERYTHING is relevant to us while not everything DIRECTLY applies from large to small.

While I am not willing to dismiss any data/evidence/best practice from large-scale brewers out-of-hand, I am also not going to accept it completely without scrutiny/experimentation either. I think the majority of the goals of a large pro brewer are on par with what I desire in my own results, but it is up to me to determine what my own goals are and decide my own path to arrive at them after weighing all the data.

I will say this, I believe that closed-mindedness is detrimental to achieving success in any endeavor.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2018, 01:14:06 PM »
My own personal pet peeve is when I hear mention of the flash point of hop oils as if it has any relevance to brewing, or the thought that hop oils instantly "flash off" in boiling liquid. Flash point is a measure of flammability and vapor pressure of a pure liquid at a given temperature. It has no bearing whatsoever on oils that are dissolved at a low concentration in boiling water.

I've never seen a spontaneous flame appear above my boil kettle, and I am pretty sure I have had higher concentrations of hop oils in my brew kettle than most other brewers.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2018, 01:36:30 PM »
My own personal pet peeve is when I hear mention of the flash point of hop oils as if it has any relevance to brewing, or the thought that hop oils instantly "flash off" in boiling liquid. Flash point is a measure of flammability and vapor pressure of a pure liquid at a given temperature. It has no bearing whatsoever on oils that are dissolved at a low concentration in boiling water.

I've never seen a spontaneous flame appear above my boil kettle, and I am pretty sure I have had higher concentrations of hop oils in my brew kettle than most other brewers.
True, and I have done that in the past. I think vapor pressure would be a better metric.
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Offline ethinson

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2018, 01:50:53 PM »
My own personal pet peeve is when I hear mention of the flash point of hop oils as if it has any relevance to brewing, or the thought that hop oils instantly "flash off" in boiling liquid. Flash point is a measure of flammability and vapor pressure of a pure liquid at a given temperature. It has no bearing whatsoever on oils that are dissolved at a low concentration in boiling water.

I've never seen a spontaneous flame appear above my boil kettle, and I am pretty sure I have had higher concentrations of hop oils in my brew kettle than most other brewers.

Sounds like someone is confusing flash point with boiling point/vaporization point.  Obviously some hop oils are volatile at room temperature, or else we wouldn't smell them.  They also can get driven off in the boil.  So I think that may be what the person is thinking, but you are correct that wouldn't have anything to do with water solubility.

An accidental combination of two unrelated phenomena.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2018, 02:21:22 PM »
The point is that everything is relevant to us (substitute “isn’t relevant” for “doesn’t apply” in the “what’s commercial doesnt apply in homebrewing” retort) and all we need to do is modify to scale or modify for environment to apply it.

EVERYTHING is relevant to us while not everything DIRECTLY applies from large to small.

There are a bunch of things and processes that pro's use that are out of common reach of a homebrewer, but that doesn't make them inapplicable. I firmly believe that there is NO difference in the physics and chemistry between homebrewing and large-scale brewing. The differences come in the ability or inability to move and process wort similarly at those scales.

I'm preparing an article and presentation on wort boiling that has been truly eye-opening. There is a plethora of scientific research and data that prove that a brewer can significantly harm their wort in a number of ways if they mis-manage this process. I can thank Derek and Bryan for setting me on my way down this rabbit-hole.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 04:26:26 PM by mabrungard »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2018, 02:38:33 PM »
The point is that everything is relevant to us (substitute “isn’t relevant” for “doesn’t apply” in the “what’s commercial doesnt apply in homebrewing” retort) and all we need to do is modify to scale or modify for environment to apply it.

EVERYTHING is relevant to us while not everything DIRECTLY applies from large to small.

There are a bunch of things and processes that pro's use that are out of common reach of a homebrewer, but that doesn't make them inapplicable. I firmly believe that there is NO difference in the physics and chemistry between homebrewing and large-scale brewing. The differences come in the ability or inability to move and process wort similarly at those scales.

I'm preparing an article and presentation on wort boiling that has been truly eye-opening. There is a plethora of scientific research and data that prove that a brewer can significantly harm their wort in a number of ways if they mis-manage this process. I can thank Derek and Bryan for setting my on my way down this rabbit-hole.

Can’t wait to read it!
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Offline Robert

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2018, 03:17:08 PM »
Regarding pro vs homebrew methods, I think we are at a distinct advantage sometimes, for instance able to heat and chill quickly, using immersion chillers, and not having to make excessive use of pumps.  Though some choose to mimic commercial practice in these areas, it may not be best practice at any scale
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Offline narcout

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2018, 03:20:31 PM »
Regarding pro vs homebrew methods, I think we are at a distinct advantage sometimes, for instance able to heat and chill quickly, using immersion chillers, and not having to make excessive use of pumps.

I always think of hydrostatic pressure on yeast.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 04:19:33 PM »
My own personal pet peeve is when I hear mention of the flash point of hop oils as if it has any relevance to brewing, or the thought that hop oils instantly "flash off" in boiling liquid. Flash point is a measure of flammability and vapor pressure of a pure liquid at a given temperature. It has no bearing whatsoever on oils that are dissolved at a low concentration in boiling water.

I've never seen a spontaneous flame appear above my boil kettle, and I am pretty sure I have had higher concentrations of hop oils in my brew kettle than most other brewers.
There was an NHC presentation years back by a hop guy who talked about the low flash points of the oils.
Sounds like someone is confusing flash point with boiling point/vaporization point.  Obviously some hop oils are volatile at room temperature, or else we wouldn't smell them.  They also can get driven off in the boil.  So I think that may be what the person is thinking, but you are correct that wouldn't have anything to do with water solubility.

An accidental combination of two unrelated phenomena.

There was an NHC presentation years back by a hop guy who talked about the low flash points of the oils. That got it going.

Myrcene doesn’t get into beer unless you dry hop. It’s boiling point is ~330F, so it isn’t boiling off.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2018, 10:25:35 PM »
By the progression of this thread, maybe a bunch of the urban legends have died, like they put peat in Scottish beer, bock means bottom of the tank, German beer is thick, etc etc

Offline Robert

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2018, 10:53:58 PM »
By the progression of this thread, maybe a bunch of the urban legends have died, like they put peat in Scottish beer, bock means bottom of the tank, German beer is thick, etc etc

Yeah, "They scrape out their vats every spring and sell the sludge as bock beer" is gone because only us old codgers  remember when the national brewers brought out a bock every spring. Those you mention come from a time before craft beer, which has spawned its own generation of myths,  the familiar ones about IPA and Porter for example.  What gets me is when brewers perpetuate these in their advertising  rather than promoting better beer knowledge. Or invent new ones. One brewer of a noted Dortmunder used to have something on the bottle like, "Also called Export, because since the early middle ages this golden lager was so prized across the world it had to be exported in caravans with heavily armed escorts..."  Where do you start?  Export designates strength under German law, not distribution; golden lager didn't exist in the middle ages; oh how about Dortmund wasn't really a brewing town until the 1870s?  Are myths and mystique more lucrative than knowledgeable consumers and good product?  Maybe for the macros, but I would think not for craft.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 10:57:14 PM by Robert »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2018, 12:22:52 AM »
This is simply the greatest time to ever have been a Homebrewer. There is so much good info out there, these myths notwithstanding. If you have the wherewithal and common sense you can do anything.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

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Offline yso191

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Re: Invincible Rumors
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2018, 03:16:52 PM »
My own personal pet peeve is when I hear mention of the flash point of hop oils as if it has any relevance to brewing, or the thought that hop oils instantly "flash off" in boiling liquid. Flash point is a measure of flammability and vapor pressure of a pure liquid at a given temperature. It has no bearing whatsoever on oils that are dissolved at a low concentration in boiling water.

I've never seen a spontaneous flame appear above my boil kettle, and I am pretty sure I have had higher concentrations of hop oils in my brew kettle than most other brewers.
There was an NHC presentation years back by a hop guy who talked about the low flash points of the oils.
Sounds like someone is confusing flash point with boiling point/vaporization point.  Obviously some hop oils are volatile at room temperature, or else we wouldn't smell them.  They also can get driven off in the boil.  So I think that may be what the person is thinking, but you are correct that wouldn't have anything to do with water solubility.

An accidental combination of two unrelated phenomena.

There was an NHC presentation years back by a hop guy who talked about the low flash points of the oils. That got it going.

Myrcene doesn’t get into beer unless you dry hop. It’s boiling point is ~330F, so it isn’t boiling off.

I have frequently repeated the idea that low boiling point hop oils get boiled off if added to the wort at or above hop-stand temperatures of (my target) 170*f.

But in doing some research into distillation I came across a thread similar to this one where the author was trying to dispel a myth that one could get the temperature of the wash up to just the boiling point of ethanol (173.1*f), and below 212* and by so doing, one could just have pure ethanol being boiled off.  Apparently this is incorrect.  The WHOLE thing boils or none of it does.

Which now has me wondering about hop oils 'boiling off' at any point when the wort is not actually boiling.  In other words why not add them at flame out rather than chilling to 170* or whatever?  Someone with more science education than me may need to step in here...
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