Author Topic: NEIPA Water Profile  (Read 1237 times)

Offline Karankar

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NEIPA Water Profile
« on: April 16, 2018, 12:22:46 PM »
Hi everyone,

I brewed my first NEIPA starting with RO water and the result doesn't live up to my expectations. Even though this beer is by far the fruitiest I ever brewed, there is a disturbing taste/mouthfeel to it which I already experienced in some NEIPA commercial examples.

I started with RO water and added 0.44 g epsom salt per gal (7 Grams for 60L) and 0.82 calcium chloride per gal (13 Grams for 60L) and obtained this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
59.1 11.5 0.0 104.5 45.5 0.000

As it tastes strange, I'm thinking about correcting it with 0.38 G Gypsum per Gal, 0.13 G of table salt per Gal and 0.13 G more of calcium chloride per Gal to reach this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
91.4 11.5 13.1 140.8 101.2 0.000

Any thougts on what I'm planing to do? Does it make sense or should I be a bit more conservative? I could also go with just a bit of gypsum to raise the sulfate level (and the calcium level but I've read it has little effect on taste) and forget about the sodium and the extra calcium chloride.

Thanks!

Offline BitterItDown

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 12:32:18 PM »
Can you further describe the taste/mouthfeel that you don't like?

Offline Karankar

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 12:37:09 PM »
It's kinda chalky, has a mineraly taste coating the mouth, almost pukey. I'm quite sure it comes from the water, that's the only variable I changed this time. It's not a regular off flavour from bad mashing or fermentation or anything else. I do control those aspects.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 12:40:31 PM »
Butyric?

Offline kramerog

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 02:11:32 PM »
Hi everyone,

I brewed my first NEIPA starting with RO water and the result doesn't live up to my expectations. Even though this beer is by far the fruitiest I ever brewed, there is a disturbing taste/mouthfeel to it which I already experienced in some NEIPA commercial examples.

I started with RO water and added 0.44 g epsom salt per gal (7 Grams for 60L) and 0.82 calcium chloride per gal (13 Grams for 60L) and obtained this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
59.1 11.5 0.0 104.5 45.5 0.000

As it tastes strange, I'm thinking about correcting it with 0.38 G Gypsum per Gal, 0.13 G of table salt per Gal and 0.13 G more of calcium chloride per Gal to reach this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
91.4 11.5 13.1 140.8 101.2 0.000

Any thougts on what I'm planing to do? Does it make sense or should I be a bit more conservative? I could also go with just a bit of gypsum to raise the sulfate level (and the calcium level but I've read it has little effect on taste) and forget about the sodium and the extra calcium chloride.

Thanks!
 

In future batches, I would drop the magnesium.  I just don't see the benefit of using epsom salts when gypsum is tried and true and you are using gypsum anyway.

In this batch, I would just add more gypsum.  This recommendation has more to do with an experimental approach of making only one change at a time.  If you add 3 different salts, how are you to know what worked or didn't work?  It seems that you have a lot of this beer, 60L, perhaps 3 cornies?  You could do different things with different cornies, but I'd start with the gypsum and see how that goes first.

Offline Karankar

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 04:00:14 PM »
Yes you could call it butyric. I'm starting to think that the RO water could've been infected. I stored this water for 2 weeks in closed sanitized Fermenters but it's still 2 weeks at room temperature.

Offline Karankar

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 04:03:40 PM »
Thanks for the answers.

About the Magnesium Sulfate: I wasn't able to find Gypsum, that's why. Now I have Gypsum and I guess I'll go easy on the Magnesium Sulfate.

I have two kegs of it. The 60L were for the entire water, sparge and mash, and I didn't even use all of it.

I'll try different things in the glass I guess. I just ordered a 0.001 G precision scale and should be able to experiment a bit without messing with the entire batch.

Offline majorvices

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 09:53:30 AM »
Yes you could call it butyric. I'm starting to think that the RO water could've been infected. I stored this water for 2 weeks in closed sanitized Fermenters but it's still 2 weeks at room temperature.

I highly doubt your water was infected. Even if the microbes were present I assume you boiled and killed them off.

You may have had an infection (pukey does sound like Butyric acid) but that would either occur during mashing (as in an extra long sour mash or kettle sour) or post boil.

The "chalky" sounds to me exactly what I get from too many of the NE IPA.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 10:39:15 AM »
.44 grams MgSO4 should be undetectable flavor threshold. But I would agree that, in theory, all grain brewing doesn't need Mg, the grain ought to bring enough to the party. I used it in my Distilled Water brews for quite a while and recently decided it's just not needed. I feel the same about NaCl. Funny how we start out simple, then go complex, then winnow it back toward simple again.

Offline Robert

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2018, 11:28:41 AM »
.44 grams MgSO4 should be undetectable flavor threshold. But I would agree that, in theory, all grain brewing doesn't need Mg, the grain ought to bring enough to the party. I used it in my Distilled Water brews for quite a while and recently decided it's just not needed. I feel the same about NaCl. Funny how we start out simple, then go complex, then winnow it back toward simple again.
Same here.  I'm currently of the opinion that the only thing I need to add to RO water is calcium (adding SO4 and Cl is just a side effect of this, which must be managed)  and Wyeast nutrient will cover any trace minerals that are really needed.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 11:33:06 AM by Robert »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2018, 02:00:13 PM »
.44 grams MgSO4 should be undetectable flavor threshold. But I would agree that, in theory, all grain brewing doesn't need Mg, the grain ought to bring enough to the party. I used it in my Distilled Water brews for quite a while and recently decided it's just not needed. I feel the same about NaCl. Funny how we start out simple, then go complex, then winnow it back toward simple again.
Same here.  I'm currently of the opinion that the only thing I need to add to RO water is calcium (adding SO4 and Cl is just a side effect of this, which must be managed)  and Wyeast nutrient will cover any trace minerals that are really needed.

After reviewing my municipal source and realizing that I only brew in a narrow style range, I'm going back to using that with a bit of Gypsum and Table Salt to balance SO4 and Cl if need be.
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Offline Karankar

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2018, 08:03:46 AM »
Thanks a lot to everyone for all your thoughts and suggestions. I tried different approaches, without being able to completely suppress this pukey/minerally taste but I still could limit it.
Here are the results of my experimentations.
1)   Added some gypsum, some sodium and more calcium chloride to reach this profile:
Ca+2    Mg+2    Na+    Cl-    SO4-2    HCO    
134.3    11.5    24.9    199.2    149.6    0.000
Comment: still pukey/minerally but like on a higher note. Doesn’t really improve the beer.

2) Added some gypsum, a bit of sodium and a tiny bit more calcium chloride to reach this profile:
Ca+2    Mg+2    Na+    Cl-    SO4-2    HCO    
98.4    11.5    9.8    135.7    118.0    0.000
Comments: the higher sulfate does “mute” the hops a bit and increases the bitterness perception but it also covers/reduces the pukey/minerally taste. It’s still isn’t great but it’s a lot better.

My current thoughts: as I said, the water could’ve been infected and I still doubt that I’ll be able to fix this issue. I’ll only know for sure when I’ve done it on an entire keg (had problems mixing the brewing salts really well in 5 minutes in a glass of carbonated beer, maybe it will dissolve better over a few days in the keg, plus it wasn’t all that accurate since I was working with very tiny amounts with an only acceptable precision scale). But what if there was a kind of optimum (for my taste, for this particular beer) around 80-120 sulfate and 100-140 chloride? I’ll keep experimenting in this range and then finally decide myself to do it on an entire keg. I’ll keep you posted.

Offline Karankar

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Re: NEIPA Water Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2018, 08:06:43 AM »
Yes you could call it butyric. I'm starting to think that the RO water could've been infected. I stored this water for 2 weeks in closed sanitized Fermenters but it's still 2 weeks at room temperature.

I highly doubt your water was infected. Even if the microbes were present I assume you boiled and killed them off.

You may have had an infection (pukey does sound like Butyric acid) but that would either occur during mashing (as in an extra long sour mash or kettle sour) or post boil.

The "chalky" sounds to me exactly what I get from too many of the NE IPA.

Well that is exactly my point. This beer has a problem and isn't good, but not a lot worse than some not so good NEIPAs I've tried. I'm even also getting this pukey/chalky feeling from good NEIPAs, it's just way more in the background and therefore they are good.