Author Topic: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water  (Read 874 times)

Offline BrewBama

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How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« on: April 21, 2018, 12:02:04 PM »
I like the simplicity of Bru’n water over other calculators but I don’t understand how to account for water treatment. Does the Camden tablet affect the water mineral balance and if so how is it accounted for in Bru’n water?  Am I missing something?

Likewise for Brewtan B. Should it be considered when calculating water mineral additions?  If so how?


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« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 12:19:24 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Robert

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 12:37:38 PM »
 Camden tablets or other metabisulfite will add sulfate and chloride if used to dechlorinate,  but a very small amount.  Palmer and Kaminski say, for instance, if you are eliminating a typical 3ppm residual chlorine,  you need 9.4ppm K-meta, and will result in 3ppm Cl, 8ppm SO4,  1.5ppm ammonium (yeast nutrient) and 4.2ppm total alkalinity. I would ignore all that, its within the target range for Bru'n Water profiles.

Brewtan B is a different story.   It doesn't directly affect pH I have found, but I discovered that it does chelate calcium, which I find somewhat negates its purported benefits in aiding protein coagulation and clarification.  Elsewhere Martin has suggested that the reduction in Ca is in the 20ppm range.
Rob
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Offline tommymorris

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How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 01:56:05 PM »
SMB adds Na and SO4.

There is a spreadsheet to estimate how much SMB to add to your mash for low oxygen brewing. It’s a bit confusing. Enter your data in the blue cells. The Blue NaMeta is taken from the table on the left. Choose the value for the highest temp your water reaches before mashing.  You estimate a margin on the other side.  Once filled out there are cells for SO4 and Na ppm. Add those to appropriate values in Brunwater in your water profile tab. Just add them to what you got from Ward Labs.


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DO-and-Mashing.xlsx

When I add SMB, I crush the tablet and add the amount recommended from this spreadsheet.

The SO4 and Na amounts are significant enough to account for them. You are going to add 20-30ppm SO4 and a smaller amount of Na.

PS. My Campden tablets say they are Sodium Metabisulfite. I think they can also be Potassium Metabisulfite which is the compound Robert talks about above.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 02:02:29 PM by alestateyall »

Offline mabrungard

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 03:21:10 PM »
The SO4 and Na amounts are significant enough to account for them. You are going to add 20-30ppm SO4 and a smaller amount of Na.

If adding metabisulfite for chlorine compound neutralization, the added Na and SO4 concentrations are much smaller than that. The levels mentioned above are from LODO brewing methods where more meta is added to the water to provide continuous oxygen scavenging.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 08:05:11 PM »
Thx folks. I have looked at the LODO spreadsheet and did find it confusing. Still not sure I am tracking but I appreciate the replies.


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Offline tommymorris

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 08:29:05 PM »
Thx folks. I have looked at the LODO spreadsheet and did find it confusing. Still not sure I am tracking but I appreciate the replies.


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It is definitely confusing.

On the far right, answer the Pre-Boil? question first. I leave the rest of that column unchanged.

In the middle, there are two NaMeta columns. Copy the value in the left g/gal cell into the right g/gal cell. (I don’t know what you have to do that manually.) Then fill in the strike volume cell.

Still in the middle column: the cells labeled g have the amount of SMB (aka. NaMeta) in grams to add to your strike water.

The SO4 Added cell has the ppm of SO4 you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

The Na Added has the ppm of Na you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

If you are doing no-sparge, you are done. If you are sparging, then enter your sparge volume in the Strike Volume cell to get the amount in grams of SMB needed in the sparge water.

Add the ppm values from the SO4 Added and Na Added cells to the Brunwater water report page.

Offline brewinhard

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 08:50:07 PM »

Brewtan B is a different story.   It doesn't directly affect pH I have found, but I discovered that it does chelate calcium, which I find somewhat negates its purported benefits in aiding protein coagulation and clarification.  Elsewhere Martin has suggested that the reduction in Ca is in the 20ppm range.

20ppm reduction in Ca when using Brewtan B huh?  Interesting. I was unaware of that. I wonder where Martin obtained that from?

Offline Robert

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 09:00:01 PM »

Brewtan B is a different story.   It doesn't directly affect pH I have found, but I discovered that it does chelate calcium, which I find somewhat negates its purported benefits in aiding protein coagulation and clarification.  Elsewhere Martin has suggested that the reduction in Ca is in the 20ppm range.

20ppm reduction in Ca when using Brewtan B huh?  Interesting. I was unaware of that. I wonder where Martin obtained that from?
All I can do is refer you to the thread where it came up; as he explains it it makes sense, but a precise number isn't there:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31388.0
Rob
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Offline brewinhard

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 09:02:50 PM »
Thank you!

Offline BrewBama

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 01:02:29 AM »
Thank you!

+1. Thx!


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Offline BrewBama

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How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 07:17:59 PM »
So, since I use distilled water and build per grain bill, if I add 1.5 Camden tab crushed as well as Brewtan-B, I can adjust my starting water profile from all ‘0’ to -20 ppm Ca, +20 ppm SO4, and ‘x’ Na. Correct?


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« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 07:20:47 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 12:28:18 AM »
So, since I use distilled water and build per grain bill, if I add 1.5 Camden tab crushed as well as Brewtan-B, I can adjust my starting water profile from all ‘0’ to -20 ppm Ca, +20 ppm SO4, and ‘x’ Na. Correct?


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What is the volume of what that 1.5 crushed tablets is going into? 1 tablet is 550 mg (according to my bag). 1.5 is 825mg.

100mg/gallon = 26.7 ppm SO4 and 6.3 ppm Na.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 01:15:13 AM by alestateyall »

Offline Big Monk

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2018, 12:38:05 AM »
So, since I use distilled water and build per grain bill, if I add 1.5 Camden tab crushed as well as Brewtan-B, I can adjust my starting water profile from all ‘0’ to -20 ppm Ca, +20 ppm SO4, and ‘x’ Na. Correct?


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Well it all depends. Let’s make some assumptions and do an example:

Strike volume = 8 gallons
1 Campden Tab is 75% Sodium Metabisulfite and weighs 550 mg

So for 1.5 tablets we have 825 mg total of which 75%, or ~619 mg, is Sodium Metabisulfite.

So 619/(8 * 3.785) = 20.4 mg/l or ppm of Sodium Metabisulfite is used to treat the water.

We always assume a potential of 101 ppm of SO4 and 24 ppm of Na per 100 ppm of Sodium Metabisulfite (use 89 ppm SO4 and  35 ppm K per 100 ppm of Potassium Metabisulfite). So for the doing described above, you’d get:

(20.4/100) * 101 = ~ 21 ppm of SO4 and (20.4/100) * 24 = ~5 ppm of Na.

As for loss of Ca from gallotannin, I don’t deny it but have never accounted for it and have not noticed any I’ll effects.

Hope this helps. If you have any questions about our spreadsheet, let me know. It’s very intuitive once you get used to it and I’m sure I could dig up a less busy older version for you if you’d like.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:42:30 AM by Big Monk »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2018, 12:44:53 AM »
Thx folks. I have looked at the LODO spreadsheet and did find it confusing. Still not sure I am tracking but I appreciate the replies.


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It is definitely confusing.

On the far right, answer the Pre-Boil? question first. I leave the rest of that column unchanged.

In the middle, there are two NaMeta columns. Copy the value in the left g/gal cell into the right g/gal cell. (I don’t know what you have to do that manually.) Then fill in the strike volume cell.

Still in the middle column: the cells labeled g have the amount of SMB (aka. NaMeta) in grams to add to your strike water.

The SO4 Added cell has the ppm of SO4 you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

The Na Added has the ppm of Na you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

If you are doing no-sparge, you are done. If you are sparging, then enter your sparge volume in the Strike Volume cell to get the amount in grams of SMB needed in the sparge water.

Add the ppm values from the SO4 Added and Na Added cells to the Brunwater water report page.

What version of the spreadsheet are you using?
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline tommymorris

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Re: How to account for Camden tablet in Bru’n water
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2018, 12:46:00 AM »
Thx folks. I have looked at the LODO spreadsheet and did find it confusing. Still not sure I am tracking but I appreciate the replies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is definitely confusing.

On the far right, answer the Pre-Boil? question first. I leave the rest of that column unchanged.

In the middle, there are two NaMeta columns. Copy the value in the left g/gal cell into the right g/gal cell. (I don’t know what you have to do that manually.) Then fill in the strike volume cell.

Still in the middle column: the cells labeled g have the amount of SMB (aka. NaMeta) in grams to add to your strike water.

The SO4 Added cell has the ppm of SO4 you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

The Na Added has the ppm of Na you are adding to the strike water by adding that amount of SMB.

If you are doing no-sparge, you are done. If you are sparging, then enter your sparge volume in the Strike Volume cell to get the amount in grams of SMB needed in the sparge water.

Add the ppm values from the SO4 Added and Na Added cells to the Brunwater water report page.

What version of the spreadsheet are you using?
This one.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DO-and-Mashing.xlsx