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Author Topic: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?  (Read 7667 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2018, 08:05:42 am »
Also, If you are kegging then I assume that you have a CO2 tank.  You can fill the keg with Sanitizer and then push it out with CO2 thus removing nearly all O2. 

How much CO2 is consumed by pushing 5 gallons of sanitzer through the keg?

How do you add keg hops using this method?
Density of CO2 is 1.977g/L, so to displace 20L of sanitizer takes 39.54g, or 1.7% of a 5lb. bottle.  At say $16 (what I pay for 5lb of CO2)  that's $0.27 to purge a keg.  Pretty cheap, compared to dumping 5 gal of oxidized beer.
Rob Stein
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2018, 08:24:47 am »
Check out this method I use.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31274.0

Also, If you are kegging then I assume that you have a CO2 tank.  You can fill the keg with Sanitizer and then push it out with CO2 thus removing nearly all O2. 

I think this is what Big Monk is saying but I will put it in my words.  If you have some extra hose lying around you can attach some to your gas in attachment from the keg and run the line from there to the top of the fermenter (Red line in picture).  Do a standard gravity transfer through the liquid out line (Blue line in picture) of the keg and as the keg fills it will displace the CO2.  Run the CO2 line to the fermenter and you will fill the head space with mostly CO2.  If you have the means you can drill two holes in a stopper for the siphon and the CO2 from the keg line. 

I cannot seem to get the images to show so here is a link...
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO8n1FTJ61xd22X5vHKIL4WnUf2zwM0gw24PIUn
What Adam said works really well.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2018, 04:59:43 pm »
Also, If you are kegging then I assume that you have a CO2 tank.  You can fill the keg with Sanitizer and then push it out with CO2 thus removing nearly all O2. 

How much CO2 is consumed by pushing 5 gallons of sanitzer through the keg?

How do you add keg hops using this method?
Density of CO2 is 1.977g/L, so to displace 20L of sanitizer takes 39.54g, or 1.7% of a 5lb. bottle.  At say $16 (what I pay for 5lb of CO2)  that's $0.27 to purge a keg.  Pretty cheap, compared to dumping 5 gal of oxidized beer.

...and I’ll add that even at like only 2psi it doesn’t take very long at all.


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Offline ultravista

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2018, 07:44:33 am »
How do you not overfill the keg? I brew batches >5 gallons to accommodate the loss hop absorption, fermenter loss, etc. Unless there is a way to precisely measure the throughput to not overfill.

Offline Robert

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2018, 08:01:43 am »
How do you not overfill the keg? I brew batches >5 gallons to accommodate the loss hop absorption, fermenter loss, etc. Unless there is a way to precisely measure the throughput to not overfill.
You do overfill, carefully.   You're pushing beer in through the liquid side,  and you want to have a tube on a disconnect on the gas side to let the gas out as liquid enters.  This can go into a pail of sani like a blowoff, or if transferring by gravity, return to the source vessel. As soon as beer is coming out the gas side, stop.  Then hook up as for dispense and push a pint or so out of the keg to get the correct fill level, and pressurized as desired.   Here are pics of both setups for closed transfer on my system, one for pressurized transfer and one for gravity. The beauty of a gravity transfer is that you don't have to watch for when beer starts coming out the gas side.  When the level equilibrates, it stops.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18NENcbG78DfZBf0TZ_hwKToANrtgad62/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dTK9aejJT9sJLIUu8v9u7S8I1OYviQ9a/view?usp=drivesdk
Depending on you fermenter, details will vary on your rig, but the idea is the same.  I used to do this with a carboy cap-based rig on a glass carboy as many brewers do.  The principle is just gas in, liquid out, then liquid in, gas out.  Nothing but beer and CO2 in your keg then.
Rob Stein
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 10:51:33 am »
I closed transfer using the gravity method pictured but 1) let it ferment down too much due to failed fast ferment test, and 2) forgot to seal the keg with CO2 pressure. (Don’t forget that last step.)

To correct my mistake I plan to take head pressure and temp of keg, weight the keg, subtract the tare weight of the keg to get beer weight in kg, then use Kai’s Carb tables to add sugar prime to (hopefully) end up with correct carb level. I’ll use a gas out quick disconnect and a syringe to adding the sugar solution.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 11:40:08 am »
^^^^
Remove the gas post and inject is how I add finings (all I ever add) -- don't forget to pull the PRV when injecting stuff through the gas side -- and a quick burst of gas afterward means virtually nil O2 pickup.   I wonder if the OP's question about hopping could be addressed this way -- a slurry of beer and hops or lupulin injected?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 12:32:06 pm »
Most of my kegs have removable PRVs and I use them to vent the keg while filling through the OUT tube and for dosing additives to the beer.
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The Beerery

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 01:49:23 pm »
^^^^
Remove the gas post and inject is how I add finings (all I ever add) -- don't forget to pull the PRV when injecting stuff through the gas side -- and a quick burst of gas afterward means virtually nil O2 pickup.   

Nil as in? Is this a hypothetical nil, or real readings?


Offline Robert

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 02:18:59 pm »
^^^^
Remove the gas post and inject is how I add finings (all I ever add) -- don't forget to pull the PRV when injecting stuff through the gas side -- and a quick burst of gas afterward means virtually nil O2 pickup.   

Nil as in? Is this a hypothetical nil, or real readings?
As in, as low as practically possible while adding anything.  If you can introduce finings (or any thing else), ideally with positive CO2 on the keg or tank, and follow with a purge, air will not be introduced in (practically) measurable amounts, nor remain but momentarily; the only significant O2 introduced will be in the finings (etc) themselves (very little in fact, but the choice to introduce it must be considered with a view to total O2 throughout the brewing process: is there room left?)  I just can't think of a better procedure for introducing it.  If you have a better procedure for introducing something into the keg, many of us, I'm sure, would be eager to hear it. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 02:56:46 pm »
Thx folks!

“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.” — Theodore Roosevelt


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The Beerery

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 02:58:38 pm »
^^^^
Remove the gas post and inject is how I add finings (all I ever add) -- don't forget to pull the PRV when injecting stuff through the gas side -- and a quick burst of gas afterward means virtually nil O2 pickup.   

Nil as in? Is this a hypothetical nil, or real readings?
As in, as low as practically possible while adding anything.  If you can introduce finings (or any thing else), ideally with positive CO2 on the keg or tank, and follow with a purge, air will not be introduced in (practically) measurable amounts, nor remain but momentarily; the only significant O2 introduced will be in the finings (etc) themselves (very little in fact, but the choice to introduce it must be considered with a view to total O2 throughout the brewing process: is there room left?)  I just can't think of a better procedure for introducing it.  If you have a better procedure for introducing something into the keg, many of us, I'm sure, would be eager to hear it.

My answer would be, you don't have to. Its a problem in search of a solution.

Tightening up brewing practices can yield beer as clear if not clearer than any fined/filtered beers in the same amount of time.

I have the DO readings to show what you recommend does indeed add ppb's of o2 to the beer. In my brewing methods and procedures, I try and avoid any o2 pickup.

Ultimately though its up to the person to see if the "pickup" translates to anything for the person.


Offline BrewBama

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Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 05:13:34 pm »
@ Beerery: I thought I’ve seen you use a syringe to inject into the gas side. No?


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« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 07:39:25 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Robert

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 05:28:05 pm »
Me?  Used to, found a couple of difficulties.   With isinglass finings, there can be small particles that can clog my syringe (the meat marinating type without the needle on.)  Plus, it's one extra step drawing into the syringe.  I found that a turkey baster (no bulb) makes a perfect funnel fitting the gas port with the post and dip removed, I just pour finings in from my measuring cup.  I also found that to be sure I'm not drawing air in with the flow, a positive purge is really easy: just very gently bubble gas in through the liquid side (restrict flow with the little ball valve on the regulator or manifold.)  Keep the PRV open and you can get the flow just right to not splatter the stuff back out.  The bubbling probably also helps to start mixing the finings. Then gas post back, PRV shut, pressure up, purge a couple of cycles for good measure. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Natural Conditioning in Keg - The Answer to Mitigating Oxidation?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 07:41:24 pm »
Me?  Used to, found a couple of difficulties.   With isinglass finings, there can be small particles that can clog my syringe (the meat marinating type without the needle on.)  Plus, it's one extra step drawing into the syringe.  I found that a turkey baster (no bulb) makes a perfect funnel fitting the gas port with the post and dip removed, I just pour finings in from my measuring cup.  I also found that to be sure I'm not drawing air in with the flow, a positive purge is really easy: just very gently bubble gas in through the liquid side (restrict flow with the little ball valve on the regulator or manifold.)  Keep the PRV open and you can get the flow just right to not splatter the stuff back out.  The bubbling probably also helps to start mixing the finings. Then gas post back, PRV shut, pressure up, purge a couple of cycles for good measure.

.Clarified my question. ...but interesting technique.


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