Author Topic: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand  (Read 1002 times)

Offline trapae

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Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« on: May 07, 2018, 12:32:57 AM »
 I realize that I’m late to the party on this one and I’m probably opening a big can of worms but ........
 How does it make sense to go through all of the lodo steps and then prior to pitching yeast, oxygenate the wort?    Is the oxygen somehow different from 02 introduced during HSA?
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2018, 01:16:39 AM »
Most definitely there is a difference. Heat speeds reactions and oxidation is no different. In the case of oxygenation at the beginning of fermentation, the wort is cool and there are yeast in the wort that readily consume the oxygen before the staling reactions can progress very far. 

Limiting hot side oxygen contact is very difficult for most brewers since there are plenty of points within their brewing process to enter the wort. It takes very little oxygen contact for the effects of hot side aeration to do their damage. If you don't have ALL the routes isolated or scavenged, it won't matter if you have implimented measures elsewhere in your process to reduce oxygen contact. That's why many brewers find that worrying about HSA doesn't make a difference in their beer. Its all or nothing when it comes to HSA.

With that said, I have found that preventing and controlling oxygen contact on the hot side matters only in beers that rely on a fresh malt flavor like Helles and Pils. Other beer styles that don't have that signature fresh malt flavor, don't benefit from all the effort. I've conducted about a dozen brews with LODO methods and found that its super important on those styles like Helles and Pils. It really makes a difference in those beers that I've made.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2018, 01:33:00 AM »
One of the best, if not THE best, explanations of it, Martin!

I'd go one step farther and suggest that, while I agree 100% with Martin on HSA and light colored fresh malt styles, there might be some styles that "bennefit" from very low HSA exposure. Darker malty styles. Bennefit is for lack of a better term, and I'm talking HSA exposure levels of a normal brewery, not overt attempts to inject O2. Maybe a better way to put it is that some styles are not bothered by minimal HSA, and might even come off as "lacking" if full on hot side LODO was used.

Just an opinion, don't thrash me too badly.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 01:50:59 AM by klickitat jim »

Offline Robert

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2018, 01:36:13 AM »
The yeast absolutely need the oxygen at the start of fermentation, and despite the efforts of brewing science,  no substitute for oxygenation has been found.  It is the one and only time we want O2.   But note that yeast take up all they will in about the first hour, which is why as soon as fermentation starts, we again avoid any O2 pickup.

Agree with Martin on vulnerable styles, and will add that part of the problem is Pils malt itself and mash programs often associated with it; simply using very slightly higher kilned malts like pale (>2L) and mashing in above 60°C essentially take lipoxygenase out of the picture, as I understand it.  That's probably where you transition to the range of effects Jim is getting at.  It's just not the same set of reactions anymore.
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Offline trapae

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2018, 01:44:58 AM »
 That all makes more sense than anything I found on the web. Thank you
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Offline Robert

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2018, 01:51:55 AM »
Thought of something that pertains to Jim's observations.  Of course the focus on HSA comes from textbooks, from DeClerck to Kunze,  which it should be noted confine themselves to the commercial production of Pils style beers.  I'd have to dig for it, but I recall reading something by Prof Narziss about the great difficulty of developing malt flavor and aroma in amber and dark beers in modern, low-oxygen brewhouses.
Rob
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Offline The Beerery

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Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2018, 02:20:55 AM »
Low oxygen is not even close to being only for pils and helles.  Nearly Every continental style should ( I say should if you are trying to mimic) have it.  Hells,Pils, dunkel, hefe, export, dortmunder, festbier, marzen, Schwarzbier, gose, beleriner, kellerbier, kolsch, etc etc I could keep on going.

Nor does Kunze and the like say that either.  Kunzes books and teachings encompass all styles.

Dark beer production, much like ale, lager light beer, medium colored beer. Does not matter, it’s all effected.




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« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 02:22:39 AM by The Beerery »
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Offline The Beerery

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2018, 02:30:37 AM »
That all makes more sense than anything I found on the web. Thank you


Web like google or web like the only resource lowoxygenbrewing.com?


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Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel!
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Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com (Now with forums)
"Consistently successful brewers are invariably the ones who operate low oxygen systems." -George Fix Circa 1999
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2018, 02:38:54 AM »
One of the best, if not THE best, explanations of it, Martin!

I'd go one step farther and suggest that, while I agree 100% with Martin on HSA and light colored fresh malt styles, there might be some styles that "bennefit" from very low HSA exposure. Darker malty styles. Bennefit is for lack of a better term, and I'm talking HSA exposure levels of a normal brewery, not overt attempts to inject O2. Maybe a better way to put it is that some styles are not bothered by minimal HSA, and might even come off as "lacking" if full on hot side LODO was used.

Just an opinion, don't thrash me too badly.

Low oxygen is not even close to being only for pils and helles.  Nearly Every continental style should ( I say should if you are trying to mimic) have it.  Hells,Pils, dunkel, hefe, export, dortmunder, festbier, marzen, Schwarzbier, gose, beleriner, kellerbier, kolsch, etc etc I could keep on going.

Nor does Kunze and the like say that either.  Kunzes books and teachings encompass all styles.

Dark beer production, much like ale, lager light beer, medium colored beer. Does not matter, it’s all effected.

It is all affected, but that does not mean it's all affected for the worse.

I'd agree, for modern continental styles (Other than some Belgian beers) LODO is a requirement. Guinness has the flavor too. But more historical beers are still delicious despite having been brewed via methods that are far from LODO. Go look at Sam Smith's brewery, they just pour the heated water right into the open tun. About as  far from LODO as possible. Or that one historical brewery in Germany that's on Kai's page.

I'm with Jim in the sense that some beers need some oxidation, but it's not a clear-cut style difference. (See Guinness having the LODO flavor.) I think better to utilize what's been learned to make the beer you want, whatever that falls into. I definitely prefer some beers with light oxidation, and others with none.
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 01:42:39 PM »
Most definitely there is a difference. Heat speeds reactions and oxidation is no different. In the case of oxygenation at the beginning of fermentation, the wort is cool and there are yeast in the wort that readily consume the oxygen before the staling reactions can progress very far. 

This is the key. The "If I'm so worried about O2, why am I oxygenating the wort?" question is in the Top 3 of the most frequent questions we get. The reaction rate is much lower at pitching temperatures, and active yeast will take that up well before any issues would arise.

With that said, I have found that preventing and controlling oxygen contact on the hot side matters only in beers that rely on a fresh malt flavor like Helles and Pils. Other beer styles that don't have that signature fresh malt flavor, don't benefit from all the effort.

I'll give some anecdotal evidence to the contrary just to get a balance: I brew what most people would know as "Monastic" or Trappist "style" ales. Also a Pale Ale and Imperial Stout. I have never brewed lager beer before. All of my beers display the signature fresh malt flavors and are more "shelf" stable to boot.

In fact, preservation of hop flavor and aroma, and not the signature malt freshness, has started to become one of the major points of interest for many people. It only takes people realizing how fast those characteristics fade in their hop forward beers before they commit to the processes. That fresh malt flavors are a side effect of the process for those people, and not the driving force behind their interest, should show you how versatile the process can be based on your goals.

It stands to reason that the topic of "shelf" stability in homebrew would never be enough to sway people. Especially for people who have a high rate of turnover. For those who either don't brew very often, or have a larger pipeline with lower turnover, the freshness and stability benefits alone should be enough to entertain the process.

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Offline Robert

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 04:30:35 PM »
I've noticed a remarkable improvement in the "fresh" malt flavor of my pale lagers since I switched to short, low-intensity boils (just 4-5% evap. rate.) I don't expect that this alone has had any great effect on reducing oxidation potential (though while I don't do LODO, I am nonetheless careful not to gratuitously introduce HSA.)  But if such boiling procedure is a part of your overall LODO program, you are getting this individual benefit. Reducing the thermal loading will benefit all worts, and it is quite beneficial in itself to pale worts, even without further LODO measures.  Each brewer must evaluate which parts of the whole are most significant in their own, unique situation.
Rob
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »
It stands to reason that the topic of "shelf" stability in homebrew would never be enough to sway people. Especially for people who have a high rate of turnover. For those who either don't brew very often, or have a larger pipeline with lower turnover, the freshness and stability benefits alone should be enough to entertain the process.

That's the one thing that would make me follow the process for "regular" ales. I spent the weekend fabbing up new supports to run my mash tun in the tippy dump I bought. I'm close to being back in the game, then we'll see if beers stick around long enough for this to be a concern.

FWIW, i know some folks use inert gas to flush their grain/shield the grain bed. I'm sure nitrogen is preferred because of cost, but will argon work? It's good enough to shield a weld from O2, so I don't see why it wouldn't...
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Offline riceral

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2018, 06:14:37 PM »
I've noticed a remarkable improvement in the "fresh" malt flavor of my pale lagers since I switched to short, low-intensity boils (just 4-5% evap. rate.) I don't expect that this alone has had any great effect on reducing oxidation potential (though while I don't do LODO, I am nonetheless careful not to gratuitously introduce HSA.)  But if such boiling procedure is a part of your overall LODO program, you are getting this individual benefit. Reducing the thermal loading will benefit all worts, and it is quite beneficial in itself to pale worts, even without further LODO measures.  Each brewer must evaluate which parts of the whole are most significant in their own, unique situation.

If you will be at NHC/HomebrewCon, this might be of interest:

      Boil Pro: What Homebrewers Can Learn from Pros on Wort Boiling
      Friday, June 29   10:15 AM - 11:15 AM
      Track: Brewing Process
      Speaker(s): Martin Brungard
      Location: Oregon Ballroom 202
   Boiling sterilizes wort, drives off unpleasant compounds, coagulates proteins, and isomerizes hop acids, all of which are critical for producing great beer. While homebrewers have been told for years that a vigorous boil is desirable, long and vigorous boils are neither necessary nor desirable for producing high-quality beer. This presentation looks at techniques and technologies that pro brewers have used for decades and explains why the popular homebrewing lore of boiling wort long and hard isn’t always best for beer.

Then there is this one right before Martin's:

        How to Brew with Low O2
        Friday, June 29   9:00 AM - 10:00 AM
        Track: Brewing Process
       Speaker(s): John Watt Scott McCormick
        Location: Portland Ballroom 252-253
     This seminar discusses the myths, benefits, and techniques of low oxygen brewing (LODO). From hot-side aeration and flavor preservation to shelf stability, you’ll learn why you should care about keeping oxygen out of your beer at all stages of the process. Come discover why there is growing interest in this approach.


Ralph R.

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2018, 08:18:08 PM »
I've noticed a remarkable improvement in the "fresh" malt flavor of my pale lagers since I switched to short, low-intensity boils (just 4-5% evap. rate.) I don't expect that this alone has had any great effect on reducing oxidation potential (though while I don't do LODO, I am nonetheless careful not to gratuitously introduce HSA.)  But if such boiling procedure is a part of your overall LODO program, you are getting this individual benefit. Reducing the thermal loading will benefit all worts, and it is quite beneficial in itself to pale worts, even without further LODO measures.  Each brewer must evaluate which parts of the whole are most significant in their own, unique situation.

If you will be at NHC/HomebrewCon, this might be of interest:

      Boil Pro: What Homebrewers Can Learn from Pros on Wort Boiling
      Friday, June 29   10:15 AM - 11:15 AM
      Track: Brewing Process
      Speaker(s): Martin Brungard
      Location: Oregon Ballroom 202
   Boiling sterilizes wort, drives off unpleasant compounds, coagulates proteins, and isomerizes hop acids, all of which are critical for producing great beer. While homebrewers have been told for years that a vigorous boil is desirable, long and vigorous boils are neither necessary nor desirable for producing high-quality beer. This presentation looks at techniques and technologies that pro brewers have used for decades and explains why the popular homebrewing lore of boiling wort long and hard isn’t always best for beer.

Then there is this one right before Martin's:

        How to Brew with Low O2
        Friday, June 29   9:00 AM - 10:00 AM
        Track: Brewing Process
       Speaker(s): John Watt Scott McCormick
        Location: Portland Ballroom 252-253
     This seminar discusses the myths, benefits, and techniques of low oxygen brewing (LODO). From hot-side aeration and flavor preservation to shelf stability, you’ll learn why you should care about keeping oxygen out of your beer at all stages of the process. Come discover why there is growing interest in this approach.

Funny, my name is attached to both of those  8) 8)
Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel!
(Oder Steine, Hauptsache er trifft.)
Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com (Now with forums)
"Consistently successful brewers are invariably the ones who operate low oxygen systems." -George Fix Circa 1999
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Lodo, but we oxygenate? Don’t understand
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2018, 09:30:46 PM »
I've noticed a remarkable improvement in the "fresh" malt flavor of my pale lagers since I switched to short, low-intensity boils (just 4-5% evap. rate.) I don't expect that this alone has had any great effect on reducing oxidation potential (though while I don't do LODO, I am nonetheless careful not to gratuitously introduce HSA.)  But if such boiling procedure is a part of your overall LODO program, you are getting this individual benefit. Reducing the thermal loading will benefit all worts, and it is quite beneficial in itself to pale worts, even without further LODO measures.  Each brewer must evaluate which parts of the whole are most significant in their own, unique situation.

If you will be at NHC/HomebrewCon, this might be of interest:

      Boil Pro: What Homebrewers Can Learn from Pros on Wort Boiling
      Friday, June 29   10:15 AM - 11:15 AM
      Track: Brewing Process
      Speaker(s): Martin Brungard
      Location: Oregon Ballroom 202
   Boiling sterilizes wort, drives off unpleasant compounds, coagulates proteins, and isomerizes hop acids, all of which are critical for producing great beer. While homebrewers have been told for years that a vigorous boil is desirable, long and vigorous boils are neither necessary nor desirable for producing high-quality beer. This presentation looks at techniques and technologies that pro brewers have used for decades and explains why the popular homebrewing lore of boiling wort long and hard isn’t always best for beer.

Then there is this one right before Martin's:

        How to Brew with Low O2
        Friday, June 29   9:00 AM - 10:00 AM
        Track: Brewing Process
       Speaker(s): John Watt Scott McCormick
        Location: Portland Ballroom 252-253
     This seminar discusses the myths, benefits, and techniques of low oxygen brewing (LODO). From hot-side aeration and flavor preservation to shelf stability, you’ll learn why you should care about keeping oxygen out of your beer at all stages of the process. Come discover why there is growing interest in this approach.

These are going to be good. Can’t wait to watch them on the AHA site.


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