Author Topic: making invert sugar  (Read 2565 times)

Offline Kevin

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2019, 06:13:34 PM »
I don't have a deep understanding about invert but from what I understand it is supposed to remain stable after the invert process. I have never had any stratification or crystallization. And certainly no "jelly".
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Offline kramerog

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2019, 06:14:36 PM »
Has anyone been able to buy commercial brewer's invert syrup and compare it to what they made?

Offline raf

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2019, 06:15:45 PM »
Are you seeing crystals at the bottom?  If so, the inversion was not entirely successful.

No crystals, but I did let my temperature get into the 280-290 range for that one. Maybe that has something to do with it. I'll try the oven method and see what happens.
Ross Filipek
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Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2019, 06:54:48 PM »
Has anyone been able to buy commercial brewer's invert syrup and compare it to what they made?
AFAIK, even in the UK it is only available in industrial quantities,  such that even smaller craft brewers are SOL.  Hence the interest in making it at home.  On a related note,  brewers caramel, aka class III or ammonia caramel, is not only unavailable to homebrewers but impossible to make for yourself.   Making true to style British beers is a challenge.


If you got stratification or crystallization, it didn't fully invert; not enough time at sufficient temperature.   If you get a consistency like jelly instead of pancake syrup, the temperature went too high.  Even a brief instant spiking too high will take the candy making process to the next stage, irreversibly. 
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Offline kramerog

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2019, 07:32:29 PM »
If you get a consistency like jelly instead of pancake syrup, the temperature went too high.  Even a brief instant spiking too high will take the candy making process to the next stage, irreversibly. 

A little water turns the jelly back into syrup.  Looking forward to the oven technique to get a slow and uniform heating.

Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2019, 07:39:12 PM »
If you get a consistency like jelly instead of pancake syrup, the temperature went too high.  Even a brief instant spiking too high will take the candy making process to the next stage, irreversibly. 

A little water turns the jelly back into syrup.  Looking forward to the oven technique to get a slow and uniform heating.
Yikes, be careful adding water to hot syrup!  Good tip though.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 02:31:49 AM »
Rob,

I know that citric acid is often recommended for making invert sugar. Its nice since its a solid and its flavor should be fine in the syrup. So the Lactic acid works equally well?
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Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 02:58:47 AM »
Rob,

I know that citric acid is often recommended for making invert sugar. Its nice since its a solid and its flavor should be fine in the syrup. So the Lactic acid works equally well?

To be honest, the only ones I've used are lactic, my default brewing acid, and (only once) cream of tartar, also mentioned in many sources.  The cream of tartar batch crystallized, but I also used a somewhat different method from some website or another, so the acid may not have been at fault.  My preference is lactic, just because I use it anyway, and I don't think enough of any acid will be used to have any flavor impact.  I expect all that matters is achieving a slight degree of acidity, and whatever is convenient is probably fine.


EDIT Wanna bet the commercial producers in England use sulfuric or hydrochloric like in manufacture of syrups by hydrolysis of starch?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 03:15:44 AM by Robert »
Rob Stein
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Offline kramerog

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2019, 04:30:58 AM »
Ragus must use a mineral acid as it acidifies to a pH of 1.6.

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Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2019, 05:29:17 PM »
Ragus must use a mineral acid as it acidifies to a pH of 1.6.

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But they neutralize that after inversion,  right?  IIRC 5.6 is what I've read is sufficient for inversion, and I believe the sugar itself contributes more acidity as it is concentrated  -- but I'm not sure about that part.  (I judge by your letter to Zymurgy a while back that you know more about this than I ever will.)  I suppose we will never know significant details of the commercial, proprietary, processes,  and will never quite duplicate the commercial products at home.
Rob Stein
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Offline kramerog

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2019, 07:07:35 PM »
Ragus must use a mineral acid as it acidifies to a pH of 1.6.

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But they neutralize that after inversion,  right?  IIRC 5.6 is what I've read is sufficient for inversion, and I believe the sugar itself contributes more acidity as it is concentrated  -- but I'm not sure about that part.  (I judge by your letter to Zymurgy a while back that you know more about this than I ever will.)  I suppose we will never know significant details of the commercial, proprietary, processes,  and will never quite duplicate the commercial products at home.
Yes, Ragus neutralizes to a pH between 5 and 6 although it isn't entirely clear if this  is immediately after inversion or at the end of the process.  I haven't tested it yet. Now that I know about the oven method, I will try a side-by-side test.

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2019, 07:25:30 PM »
Bless you guys who go through that effort to get a British character.  I used to add Lyle’s Golden Syrup and a touch of Treacle to my early batches of Ordinary Bitters, because my few attempts at making invert were just so, so in terms of flavor improvement...but with the oven technique and the quality thermometers I now use, I may just revisit this for some recipes (I am thinking the Crisp Heritage malts and homemade invert sugar combining to make some high quality English ales).
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Offline Kevin

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2019, 07:29:12 PM »
Has anyone been able to buy commercial brewer's invert syrup and compare it to what they made?
AFAIK, even in the UK it is only available in industrial quantities,  such that even smaller craft brewers are SOL.  Hence the interest in making it at home.  On a related note,  brewers caramel, aka class III or ammonia caramel, is not only unavailable to homebrewers but impossible to make for yourself.   Making true to style British beers is a challenge.


If you got stratification or crystallization, it didn't fully invert; not enough time at sufficient temperature.   If you get a consistency like jelly instead of pancake syrup, the temperature went too high.  Even a brief instant spiking too high will take the candy making process to the next stage, irreversibly.

You can buy Brewers Caramel in small bottles. I bought some from a company called hop and grape. They are in the UK so even though the actual product is only about $6.5 US dollars you will end up paying around $12 or more in shipping.

https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/brupaks-brewers-caramel.html
“He was a wise man who invented beer.”
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Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2019, 07:41:47 PM »
Bless you guys who go through that effort to get a British character.  I used to add Lyle’s Golden Syrup and a touch of Treacle to my early batches of Ordinary Bitters, because my few attempts at making invert were just so, so in terms of flavor improvement...but with the oven technique and the quality thermometers I now use, I may just revisit this for some recipes (I am thinking the Crisp Heritage malts and homemade invert sugar combining to make some high quality English ales).
Be careful about using Crisp Chevallier Heritage Malt and homemade Invert.  You may never, ever be able  to bring yourself to do anything else again.  ;)
Rob Stein
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Online Robert

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Re: making invert sugar
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 07:44:19 PM »
Has anyone been able to buy commercial brewer's invert syrup and compare it to what they made?
AFAIK, even in the UK it is only available in industrial quantities,  such that even smaller craft brewers are SOL.  Hence the interest in making it at home.  On a related note,  brewers caramel, aka class III or ammonia caramel, is not only unavailable to homebrewers but impossible to make for yourself.   Making true to style British beers is a challenge.


If you got stratification or crystallization, it didn't fully invert; not enough time at sufficient temperature.   If you get a consistency like jelly instead of pancake syrup, the temperature went too high.  Even a brief instant spiking too high will take the candy making process to the next stage, irreversibly.

You can buy Brewers Caramel in small bottles. I bought some from a company called hop and grape. They are in the UK so even though the actual product is only about $6.5 US dollars you will end up paying around $12 or more in shipping.

https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/brupaks-brewers-caramel.html
Yeah, I know you can get it from UK homebrew retailers.   But with that shipping, I regard it as unavailable.   Sinamar isn't a bad substitute I figure,  as neither is intended to give much flavor.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.