Author Topic: Speaking of Weizen...  (Read 659 times)

Online BrewBama

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Speaking of Weizen...
« on: May 20, 2018, 02:31:35 PM »
We were talking weizen, right?  Anyway, what do you consider a good wheat to Pils (or Vienna) ratio?  In Brewing Classic Styles Jamil uses 50 Pils/50 malted wheat. Josh uses 50 Pils/50 unmalted wheat with a little acid malt and flaked Oats thrown in in his Craft Beer and Brewing series “Make your best [fill in the blank style]”. Kai uses 70% wheat malt/22% Pils with 5% caramunich and 3% acid malt. He alternately says you can sub the Pils and Cara for 27% Vienna or Light Munich.

What say you?  50/50, 70/27/3, or...?


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Offline majorvices

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 03:02:19 PM »
50-60% wheat. I like dark wheat for dunkel weizen.

Offline Robert

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 03:03:16 PM »
Well for starters, if it's German, it can't have any unmalted anything, and to be a Weizen, it has to be at least 50% wheat malt.  I have an old article (in Zymurgy Winter 1993) on specialty malts by Prof Narziss suggesting grain bills all over the map beyond that:

•50-90% wheat malt plus pale
•70% light wheat malt 5% CaraHell 25% pale
•70% light wheat malt 15% pale 15% light Munich
And for Dunkelweizen:
•60% light wheat malt 40% light Munich, roast as needed for color
•40% light wheat malt 30% dark wheat malt 30% light Munich

Short story long, it looks like the German approach is heavy on the wheat malt.

[Note: he does distinguish a pale malt (Helles) between Pils and Vienna.]

Hope that gets you started, now I'm thirsty for a Weizen, dammit. :)
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 03:21:41 PM »
Since this is such a yeast-driven style, I honestly don't think the malts matter a ton.  I aim for 50-60% wheat malt with German pils and perhaps a touch of Caramunich to make up the balance.

Still searching for the right yeast though.  For some reason I never used WLP300 yet but based on a lot of research it appears this is the best final answer.  I have had mixed results with WLP380, sometimes it was great.  I have had terrible results with many other yeasts.  In general I have decided to cut back a lot on "experimentation", and simply use what makes the most sense.  Simplify everything.  I am done over-complicating every damn thing.  So next time I might not even use any Caramunich, or acid malt, or oats, or melanoidin, or any other small ingredient.  Just KISS.
Dave

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2018, 07:06:37 PM »
Just be aware that boosting the wheat percentage doesn't increase the ferrulic acid content in the wort. Barley malt actually has higher ferrulic acid potential than wheat malt. This was reported in an Institute of Brewing journal article. It surprised me. I've hovered in the 50 to 60 percent wheat range, but I'll be focusing on 50 percent in the future.
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Online BrewBama

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2018, 07:49:54 PM »
Great discussion. Interesting how so many roads lead to Rome. I was looking at Weyermann’s website and while they don’t have a Weissbier recipe they do have an Amber Wheat beer recipe. In it they call for WB-06. Blasphemy: Dry Yeast!


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Offline majorvices

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2018, 11:13:24 PM »
Yeah malted wheat obviously. And yes I do agree that this beer style is way more yeast driven than malt driven. But if you don’t put at least 50% wheat in your recipe it’s not a dunkel weizen plain and simple


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Offline chumley

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2018, 03:34:00 AM »
Okay, I will post the same killer weizen receipe that I have been brewing the last 10-15 years or so, as it has been perfected.

60% German wheat malt
30% German pale ale malt (NOT PILS!!!!)
10% German Munich or Vienna (I lean towards Munich)

Mash in thick at 105 degrees for 15 min, add hot water to bring to 148 for 20 min, add hot water to bring to 155 for 30 min more.  Or just single infusion mash at 150 for 90 min.

18 IBUs of Tettnanger for the boil.
0.25 Tetts for the last 5 min (for 5 gallons)

This is important.....WY3333 pitched in, fermented at low to mid 60s.

You're welcome.

Online BrewBama

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 10:27:17 PM »
Cool. I was considering Tettnang over Hallertau.


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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 07:12:46 PM »
Just be aware that boosting the wheat percentage doesn't increase the ferrulic acid content in the wort. Barley malt actually has higher ferrulic acid potential than wheat malt. This was reported in an Institute of Brewing journal article. It surprised me. I've hovered in the 50 to 60 percent wheat range, but I'll be focusing on 50 percent in the future.
BrewBama,

I have found it greatly depends on the flavors you like in your wiezen.  I tend to be more attracted to the clove flavors which, as Martin pointed out, tend to come from the ferrulic acid in the Vienna.  So to clarify, using exactly 50% wheat and increasing Vienna gives me more robust clove flavors with a solid ferrulic acid rest at 109-113°F for 10-15 mins before proceeding to the protien rest and finally sacch rest and mash out/sparge. 

From what I've found, this style relies more heavily on a solid mash and chemistry knowledge and schedule.  I don't have one yet, but a HERMS would make this process significantly easier.  I hope this helps.

Jared

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Online BrewBama

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 10:41:30 PM »
Thx Jared. I have a RIMS now so steps are in the plan.


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Offline majorvices

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 11:19:16 AM »
Duane, here's my recipe for HefeWeizen that has worked well for me. If you come by brewery in mid June you can try it.

I like WLP380 Hefeweizen IV. For me it is 60% Wheat 40% pils (I might blend in a little vienna or munich too). If you can do a ferulic acid rest and/or double decoction I think it is well worth it, otherwise a single infusion at 150.

If you have fresh yeast no need to make a starter. Aerate a little less than you normally do and pitch at about 64 then raise to 72 after 48 hours. Alternatively if you want to minimize the isoamyl acetate pitch cooler at about 58 then raise to 64-66 after 48 hours.

Online BrewBama

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Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2018, 02:30:02 PM »
Thanks folks!

I have my plan together now. I plan to use 9 gal distilled water (no sparge), add 50 ppm calcium, 50 ppm sulfate, and 51 ppm chloride, and perform a ferulic acid rest at 113*F 45 min, as well as beta at 145*F 35 min, alpha at 160*F 45 min, and mash out at 170*F 10 min.

However, according to Bru’n water, to get my pH within range I need 5 ml lactic (88%) that I will withhold until the beta rest pH ck. But when I do that I reduce bicarbonate to -102. Is that an issue?

Do I even need to add acid with the ferulic rest?


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« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 03:03:19 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Speaking of Weizen...
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2018, 04:51:06 PM »
I've recently read on the BeerAdvocate forum from Bryan "The Beerery" that high pH is actually a *good* thing for hefeweizens......... so probably don't need to add any lactic acid at all!?

Cheers.
Dave

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