Author Topic: pale malt difference  (Read 1310 times)

Offline Big Monk

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2018, 01:45:15 PM »
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

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Offline Robert

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2018, 02:39:50 PM »
^^^^
Weyermann and Rahr, at least, have a QR code on the bag that will link you to a lot analysis.  If you don't buy by the bag yourself , you could at least see if your LHBS will let you scan a bag from their shipment.
Rob
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2018, 02:51:56 PM »
^^^^
Weyermann and Rahr, at least, have a QR code on the bag that will link you to a lot analysis.  If you don't buy by the bag yourself , you could at least see if your LHBS will let you scan a bag from their shipment.

The two biggest factors to making good beer are knowing your malt so you can produce the wort you want and clean fermentation.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

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Offline mainebrewer

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2018, 04:18:24 PM »
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.
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Offline denny

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2018, 04:31:09 PM »
"2 row" is a poor descriptor for precisely which malt to use. Maris Otter is a variety of 2 row. We all misuse these terms. I tell people I use Golden Promise... but more specifically its Simpsons Golden Promise Finest Pale Ale. Even though you could certainly use a larger yeast with it, even a larger yeast that is actually an ale yeast.

It's just one of those things. In fishing they refer to monofilament vs florocarbon. Um, both are actually monofilament, unless they are braided... but I guess monofilament sounds better than nylon.

I suspect one of the key aspects that effects final beer flavor is diastatic power. Generally American paler kilned malts, about 80% of which are 2 row, are far higher DP than their European counterparts. Yes, different varieties. Yes, kilned differently. But treat an American variety they way the European maltsters do and I bet my suspicion is accurate ish.

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2018, 04:45:18 PM »
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline Robert

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2018, 06:10:06 PM »
But treat an American variety they way the European maltsters do and I bet my suspicion is accurate ish.
One thing I've learned from the podcasts is that American varieties, and even American-grown European varieties, really have to be handled differently.   The S/T has to be pushed higher, not for its own sake, but because it goes hand in hand with beta glucan reduction, breakdown of cell walls to make starch available, and many other things.  Yes, it gives American malts higher DP,  as well as FAN.  But you can deal with that in process.  Otherwise the malt will lack good capacity for flavor and color development, will perform poorly in the brewhouse, and the beer will not clarify well (or taste very exciting.)  I just finished a keg I brewed with locally grown KWS Scala,  locally floor malted to European specs.  I think I saw all of those problems. I'd have to try the same barley malted in the conventional US way to be sure.  But this malt wasn't European-like, it was just disappointing.
Rob
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mainebrewer

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2018, 09:23:55 PM »
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2018, 09:24:49 PM »
Joe has got to be the most knowledgeable malt person around. Great teacher too.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2018, 09:49:43 PM »

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.

Maybe this can help: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2018, 10:31:58 PM »
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.

I meant we, as in the Royal we, as in homebrewers and hobbyists.

I’ve thought about this over the last month or so when I was revising my personal sheet. I think using the coarse grind as is numbers would make many people undershoot gravity. Think about it: the fine grind as is values are determine by pulverizing the malt and draining every single drop of wort possible out of it. They likely get almost 100% Lauter η in addition to 100% Conversion η. In that sense, we wouldn’t want to use that number because we can’t achieve those same results.

However, we don’t crush that fine so we don’t get full lauter efficiency. This makes using the DBAI okay because we are going to apply a mash efficiency term less than 100% to the calculation.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline mainebrewer

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2018, 02:02:50 PM »
BrewBama, thanks for the link.
Big Monk, thanks for explaining your rationale.
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Offline Robert

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2018, 12:06:50 AM »
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
Rob
Akron, Ohio

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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2018, 01:31:31 AM »
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
My personal favorite

Offline Robert

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Re: pale malt difference
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2018, 01:41:09 AM »
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
My personal favorite
Jim, your frequent enthusiastic endorsement was a factor in my deciding to finally shell out for a bag. Now I'm already hooked , at least I see I can go to Morebeer, pay shipping, and still save $10 over LHBS.  (OTOH it's always going to be incredibly fresh at LHBS. They also have a distillery and it's the base of their whiskey, so they buy boatloads.  The smell coming from back there was another factor in my decision.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 02:20:18 AM by Robert »
Rob
Akron, Ohio

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