Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Gelatinize ceral grains  (Read 4567 times)

Offline MNWayne

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
Gelatinize ceral grains
« on: July 03, 2018, 07:30:22 am »
OK, so I know unmalted cereal grains need to undergo a gelatinization process in order for their starch to be broken down by enzymes in the malt. This can be accomplished by cooking them in water. Is this simply a softening process? Or is there another reaction occurring? Rather than cooking, can this be done by an overnight soak?
Far better to dare mighty things....

Offline scrap iron

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
  • K.C.
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 07:53:18 am »
Mike F.                                                                              “I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts, and beer.”

Abraham Lincoln

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 09:28:38 am »
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4724
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 10:30:57 am »
I could be wrong, but as I understand it... Gelatinization is a physical transformation that makes starch molecules unravel and expand, which makes it easier for enzymes to get in there and do what brewers want them to do during the mash.  Popcorn is the simplest example -- you start with small kernels of hard corn, then apply heat until the starches explode.  The same thing is going on in your oatmeal, your porridge, and your "cereal mash".  Cook the starch until it gets ooey gooey, then you know the enzymes will be able to get their job done in a very short time instead of taking hours or days in the confines of the small kernel where only the outside surface of each kernel is exposed.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 11:01:43 am »
The trick is that each cereal grain has its own gelatinization temperature.  The temperature for malted barley (and other malted grains) is conveniently within mash range; but for most grains it is considerably higher.  They need to be cooked in a cereal mash which ramps up to boiling -- or, far more conveniently, be pre-gelatinized in a process like flaking (where the soaked grits are passed between steam-heated rollers that cook and dry them all at once.)  If your grain of choice is available as brewer's flakes (as are corn, wheat, barley, rye, oats and maybe others,) save yourself a lot of trouble and go that route. They go right in the mash.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 11:07:38 am by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4724
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 11:33:04 am »
The trick is that each cereal grain has its own gelatinization temperature.  The temperature for malted barley (and other malted grains) is conveniently within mash range; but for most grains it is considerably higher.  They need to be cooked in a cereal mash which ramps up to boiling -- or, far more conveniently, be pre-gelatinized in a process like flaking (where the soaked grits are passed between steam-heated rollers that cook and dry them all at once.)  If your grain of choice is available as brewer's flakes (as are corn, wheat, barley, rye, oats and maybe others,) save yourself a lot of trouble and go that route. They go right in the mash.

True.  Excellent points.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Lazy Ant Brewing

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 08:16:31 am »
As an example, I recently brewed a wild rice porter.  I boiled the wild rice seeds for about 45 minutes.  As Dave said, at that point they were an ooey-gooey mess.  But they had swelled up and were available for the enzymes in the mash to extract sugars from them.

Some of the guys at the local brew club liked the results, but I wasn't that fond of the brew and didn't think the extra time involved was worth it.  But hey, I learned something in the process.

Cheers!
It's easier to read brewing books and get information from the forum than to sacrifice virgins to appease the brewing gods when bad beer happens!

Offline jeffy

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4222
  • Tampa, Fl
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 10:56:18 am »
If you add a little barley malt to the adjunct, it helps keep it from getting so ooey and gooey.  I forget why.  When doing a cereal decoction with corn for a CAP, I add 20% of the barley malt to the corn.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 11:30:55 am »
If you add a little barley malt to the adjunct, it helps keep it from getting so ooey and gooey.  I forget why.  When doing a cereal decoction with corn for a CAP, I add 20% of the barley malt to the corn.
Conventional cereal mashes use 10% of the malt.  The books all say it's the alpha amylase, referred to as the "enzyme of liquefaction" in this context, and it supposedly remains active in this function right through boiling.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2018, 02:12:18 pm »
If you add a little barley malt to the adjunct, it helps keep it from getting so ooey and gooey.  I forget why.  When doing a cereal decoction with corn for a CAP, I add 20% of the barley malt to the corn.
Conventional cereal mashes use 10% of the malt.  The books all say it's the alpha amylase, referred to as the "enzyme of liquefaction" in this context, and it supposedly remains active in this function right through boiling.
A rest at 158-160 F is required. Usually do a Cereal Mash every year.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4724
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 06:01:12 pm »
If you add a little barley malt to the adjunct, it helps keep it from getting so ooey and gooey.  I forget why.  When doing a cereal decoction with corn for a CAP, I add 20% of the barley malt to the corn.
Conventional cereal mashes use 10% of the malt.  The books all say it's the alpha amylase, referred to as the "enzyme of liquefaction" in this context, and it supposedly remains active in this function right through boiling.

The boil will kill the enzymes, but if the cereal mash is rested in the 150s for at least 15-20 minutes first, then it's not so gooey if the starch is converted to sugar.  Yeah, I guess that step is pretty standard and I kind of forgot about it.  Shows how often I do a cereal mash (like never).
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Gelatinize ceral grains
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 06:10:13 pm »
^^^^
That makes sense, once liquefied it just has to stay liquid without retrograding too quickly, which would only happen when it drops below a certain temperature. Probably not necessary as long as you can stir a pot of goo into your main mash.  But if you're a brewery pumping the cereal mash over, well goo and impellers just don't play well do they.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.