[Robert]

^^^^
Helles just means "pale."  Stout just means "big."  Taken at face value, as the terms were originally intended, there's nothing controversial about either of those examples.  Style police need to chillax.  With a stout, Helles, hoppy, hazy ale maybe.

I disagree and here's why: Frankenstein.

I had to explain to my son last night the confusion over the name Frankenstein. Frankenstein is the doctor, not the creature. Except that in nearly every culture aware of the story, Frankenstein is the creature. It has taken root to the point where going back to calling him "The creature" just seems at odds with pop culture.

Is it right to invoke Helles meaning "pale"? Yes. Grammatically and technically, yes. Can we go back to a time where a Helles is any pale beer under the sun? Not likely. I think styles guidelines are mostly nonsense. Yet, Helles is a distinct beer in flavor and appearance from a Pils, or an Export, or a Kolsch, or a Festbier. And they are all pale.

The Brulosophy thing was a joke on my part. They can call whatever they want whatever they'd like. I think there are clear differences between beers of different styles that share some commonalities, and in that regard, style guidelines make perfect sense.

Point well taken. Maybe we should just acknowledge that there are different levels of speech, or formality, in using descriptors, as in every aspect of life.  Term of art, or colloquial use.  Yes, in competition it's necessary to group like with like.  But in the real world, for marketers and for consumers, it's more subjective.  (Czechs say it's not Pilsner if it comes from outside the city;  John Q. Public sees no problem including Lite and Stella.)  When I lived in England in the late 80s, drinkers, and I'd swear even brewers, seemed blissfully unaware that the pubs sold anything other than Bitter (anything on hand pump,) Lager, and Guinness.  Michael J and Charlie P had not yet enlightened the world. And oh! the joy of finding such a diversity of individual "Bitters," not imagining any two should be classed together.   What irks me is when the heavenly authority of style guidlines becomes determinative of what a brewer should make, or put on a label, or what (or how) I can order at the bar.  You may never find the beer you really like if your beer is all made to conform to standards, or you only seek and taste within them.  History repeats itself?

[The Beerery]

I have no problem (well a little, lets be honest) to using the term helles. It does translate to light. However when you call it a Munich Helles, you are specifically calling out a beer to a certain region, the region the name is modeled after. So in my mind if you do this "call out" it should be as if you are sitting in that region enjoying the local fair. I can say with 1000% certainty Munich helles are not fermented warm and with a kolsch yeast, not to mention other details, you would literally be laughed out of Germany if you told them this. So again to me it's false advertising, because if I bought this kit/brewed this recipe it would not be anything close to the beer from Munich. People would make money off me, and I would be left with a beer that is not stylistic of the beer its modeled after. Thats really where my issues lie.

But at the end of the day, it's really not a battle worth fighting, because it doesn't really matter. It's just stupid beer.

[redzim]

I'm a huge fan of Kaiser's Edel Hell. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Edel_Hell
   I brew it every March, drink it in May. For about 10 years running now.

[denny]

NOTE:  The following is a thought exercise, not a dig at anyone's answer...

If someone handed you a beer that looked like a helles, smelled like a helles and tasted like a helles, how would you know what was in it or how it was made?  And would it matter?

[The Beerery]

NOTE:  The following is a thought exercise, not a dig at anyone's answer...

If someone handed you a beer that looked like a helles, smelled like a helles and tasted like a helles, how would you know what was in it or how it was made?  And would it matter?

Nope, but if you handed me any beer made with a kolsch yeast that wasn't a "kolsch" I could tell, as its a very signature yeast flavor.

[denny]

NOTE:  The following is a thought exercise, not a dig at anyone's answer...

If someone handed you a beer that looked like a helles, smelled like a helles and tasted like a helles, how would you know what was in it or how it was made?  And would it matter?

Nope, but if you handed me any beer made with a kolsch yeast that wasn't a "kolsch" I could tell, as its a very signature yeast flavor.

But that's not what the question asks.

[BrewBama]

I think Josh had a blog post similar to this line of discussion on his Beer Simple site. https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2018/5/28/lying-lagers-and-the-lagerers-who-lager-them-and-other-lying-beers


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[Big Monk]

I think Josh had a blog post similar to this line of discussion on his Beer Simple site. https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2018/5/28/lying-lagers-and-the-lagerers-who-lager-them-and-other-lying-beers


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I get, and I agree with, the sentiment of Denny’s question. If you call it a Helles, and it tastes like a Helles, who cares.

I also agree with Bryan in that, if you call it a Helles and it tastes like a Kolsch, it’s a Kolsch.

Part of it could that some people don’t have as discerning of a palate, i.e. a lager is a lager. And that’s fine too. In that case, don’t bother giving it a style name. Just call it a lager.

[tommymorris]

I think Josh had a blog post similar to this line of discussion on his Beer Simple site. https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2018/5/28/lying-lagers-and-the-lagerers-who-lager-them-and-other-lying-beers


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I get, and I agree with, the sentiment of Denny’s question. If you call it a Helles, and it tastes like a Helles, who cares.

I also agree with Bryan in that, if you call it a Helles and it tastes like a Kolsch, it’s a Kolsch.

Part of it could that some people don’t have as discerning of a palate, i.e. a lager is a lager. And that’s fine too. In that case, don’t bother giving it a style name. Just call it a lager.

I brew a blonde ale with German grain bill and hops but WLP001. I call it a lager when I serve it at parties. People love it. They don’t care what yeast was used. I am the only one that knows.

I haven’t tried the Brulosphy Helles.  But, it sure seems like I would be able to taste the Kölsch yeast flavor.


- formerly alestateyall.