Author Topic: Cherries  (Read 1757 times)

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8131
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2010, 04:29:21 PM »
Most pits/seeds have small amounts of cyanide in them - not a problem tho since an acid environment will eliminate the toxic effects.

Are you sure beer is acidic enough Susan?  I remember that strong acids will react with nitriles, but o-chem was a while ago . . .
Tom Schmidlin

Offline susanr

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2010, 10:13:59 AM »
Most pits/seeds have small amounts of cyanide in them - not a problem tho since an acid environment will eliminate the toxic effects.

Are you sure beer is acidic enough Susan?  I remember that strong acids will react with nitriles, but o-chem was a while ago . . .

Hi Tom,  You got me thinking - so perhaps my reasoning is a little wrong - is this myth or not?  I couldn't find the exact reaction of how the cyanide in the pits of stone fruits reacted in the stomach or in beer (alcohol) but here is what I did find: - The short of this is that the cyanohydrin - mandelonitrile - found in the pits of cherries, apples, etc is very nonreactive and would not be a problem - the cyanohydrin - glycolonitrile - a glycoside, C20H27NO11, commonly found in seeds and other plant parts of many members of the rose family, such as kernels of the apricot, peach, and bitter almond, which breaks down into hydrocyanic acid, benzaldehyde, and glucose can be very toxic under certain circumstances.  This glycoside is also found in low levels in cherry pit and so if concentrated could be a problem in some circumstances - but would require quite a bit of concentration - I am still looking for how these would react with an Alcohol - I suspect that the -OH would bind with the H+ and thus eliminate any cyanide gas formation which would be what causes toxic effects - but have not found this in easy research yet.

Thus, my opinion would be that leaving the cherry pits in is safe and that you would probably end up falling down drunk and not being able to consume any more long before any toxic effects from the cyanide in the pits would take effect.  There is also some discussion on both of these cyanohydrins having some use against cancer but nothing has been proven (or really disproven) on this.

From Wikipedia - for background info.

In humans, cyanohydrins are important metabolites in cyanide detoxification processes.
Some cyanohydrins are: mandelonitrile and glycolonitrile.


Mandelonitrile have a structural formula of C6H5CH(OH)CN and occur in pits of some fruits.
Mandelonitrile is broken down into cyanide and benzaldehyde by the enzyme mandelonitrile lyase.

A cyanide is any chemical compound that contains the cyano group (C≡N), which consists of a carbon atom triple-bonded to a nitrogen atom. [1] Inorganic cyanides are generally salts of the anion CN−.[2][3] Of the many kinds of cyanide compounds, some are gases; others are solids or liquids. Those that can release the cyanide ion CN− are highly toxic.[4]
In IUPAC nomenclature, organic compounds that have a –C≡N functional group are called nitriles. Nitriles, on the contrary, are never inorganic compounds. [5] [6] An example of a nitrile is CH3CN, acetonitrile, also known as methyl cyanide. Nitriles usually do not release cyanide ions.
A functional group with a hydroxyl and cyanide bonded to the same carbon is called cyanohydrin, and cyanohydridins are hydrolyzed into hydrogen cyanide and a carbonyl compound (ketone or aldehyde).
Many cyanide-containing compounds are highly toxic, but some are not. Nitriles (which do not release cyanide ions) and hexacyanoferrates (ferrocyanide and ferricyanide, where the cyanide is already tightly bound to an iron ion) have low toxicities, while most other cyanides are deadly poisonous.
Cheers,
Susan

Homebrewing is not my hobby - it is my lifestyle.

BJCP Assistant Exam Director
BJCP Grand Master Judge
former AHA Governing Committee
Prairie Homebrewing Companions
Beer and Meadmaker - 15 years

Offline tom

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1110
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2010, 10:29:31 AM »
Great info. Thanks.
Brew on

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 11:15:00 AM »
Do kriek producers pit their cherries?  I seem to remember the answer being no...
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4547
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2010, 12:18:27 PM »
Cherries in Kreik I don't know.  One visit to Cantillon, Jean van Roy and 2 other young guys were at the entry in the Sun pitting apricots for Fou Foune. 
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8131
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2010, 03:46:23 PM »
Thanks Susan, great info.  It probably is safe, but we're pitting the cherries for our latest barrel brew.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline susanr

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2010, 08:05:12 AM »
Thanks Susan, great info.  It probably is safe, but we're pitting the cherries for our latest barrel brew.

Hi Tom,  Depending on what I was making - I pit the cherries - but this is solely based on the flavors that are derived - you will get a fresher cherry flavor if pitted and you will get a softer cherry/vanilla/almond flavor with the pits left in which increases the longer they are on the pits - if left on the pits too long - it is almost harsh - so, yes, for a barrel where you will most likely leave it for awhile, I would remove the pits.

So now for this advice - please send a bottle of the final barrel project.  ;D
Cheers,
Susan

Homebrewing is not my hobby - it is my lifestyle.

BJCP Assistant Exam Director
BJCP Grand Master Judge
former AHA Governing Committee
Prairie Homebrewing Companions
Beer and Meadmaker - 15 years

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8131
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2010, 09:16:23 AM »
So now for this advice - please send a bottle of the final barrel project.  ;D
If it's any good, I'll bring a keg to NHC. :)
Tom Schmidlin

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11696
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Cherries
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2010, 09:17:24 AM »
So now for this advice - please send a bottle of the final barrel project.  ;D
If it's any good, I'll bring a keg to NHC. :)

I'll be waiting!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline 1vertical

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2525
  • [1131.2, 279.6] Apparent Rennerian
    • View Profile
Re: Cherries
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2010, 07:17:44 PM »
I currently have .25 lbs of Mahleb in a Kriek  beer digesting away in a 50 liter Oak cask
with B. Lambicus, (cmon cherry BOMB). Samples were very pie cherry and mahleb lending
some floral notes....just waiting for the brett to work it's magic.
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.