Author Topic: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer  (Read 1096 times)

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2018, 12:01:19 AM »
The inclination if I'm reading the op's intent, is that, if this enzyme is indeed an accelerator or agent of staling, that it's absence may slow the rate of damage by the O2 in the tun, kettle, or bottle (not prevent it).

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Kunze 3.2.1.6 explains that even if all O2 were excluded, degradation by LOX of fatty acids would still occur.  (But LOX is temperature sensitive, so using higher kilned malts and mashing in in above 140°F already reduce it considerably.)

I appreciate the explanation.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2018, 12:02:27 AM »
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2018, 12:30:07 AM »
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.

I guess it goes back to the old saw: know why you’re doing what you’re doing.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2018, 12:36:39 AM »
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.

I guess it goes back to the old saw: know why you’re doing what you’re doing.


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Yup. Knowledge is power in brewing and it introduces a measure of control over you’re variables. I would argue that paying closer attention to wort quality into the kettle and then into the fermenter will pay infinitely more dividends than trying to get LOX out of malt. From a flavor stability standpoint that is.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2018, 01:00:54 AM »
Big Monk, I can see this as another problem you can approach by reducing one or more elements of a triangle as it were.  Oxygen the catalyst, LOX the agent and lipids the substrate.  Reduce lipids (wort clarity,) minimize oxygen, thereby compensate for the presence of LOX.  But I realize lipid degradation can begin at (let's ignore before) mashing in, before you've run off clear wort.  Is this where gallotannin comes in?
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2018, 01:11:12 AM »
Big Monk, I can see this as another problem you can approach by reducing one or more elements of a triangle as it were.  Oxygen the catalyst, LOX the agent and lipids the substrate.  Reduce lipids (wort clarity,) minimize oxygen, thereby compensate for the presence of LOX.  But I realize lipid degradation can begin at (let's ignore before) mashing in, before you've run off clear wort.  Is this where gallotannin comes in?

That and the use of a bag as the filtering mechanism in lieu of the standard cooler braid and in conjunction with a false bottom. Constant recirculation helps as well, as it really sets the grain bed and increases efficiency so you don’t have to stir up all that junk before running off. No sparge helps as well by eliminating the Sparging step. Conditioned grains with intact husks is a great filtering mechanism as well.

Many many levers to pull here. As an engineer (Bryan is an engineer as well) I am looking at these issues as engineering problems and looking for practical solutions. Nothing esoteric here. You are solving problems and that doesn’t necessarily have to be shiny and high tech.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:17:25 AM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

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Offline Robert

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2018, 01:19:58 AM »
And I see these malts as more attractive to big brewers who need every possible lever to pull to maximize stability, whereas home- and craft brewers are better able to ensure their products are handled properly, another lever.  (Temperature, the great accelerator.)  Even there, I seem to recall Joe Hertrich in a podcast suggesting that accepting a bit higher color off the kiln and mashing higher might negate the need for null-LOX barley.  (Hmm, those seem to be his solutions to many issues....)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 01:26:02 AM by Robert »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2018, 01:29:14 AM »
And I see these malts as more attractive to big brewers who need every possible lever to pull to maximize stability, whereas home- and craft brewers are better able to ensure their products are handled properly, another lever.  (Temperature, the great accelerator.)  Even there, I seem to recall Joe Hertrich in a podcast suggesting that accepting a bit higher color off the kiln and mashing higher might negate the need for null-LOX barley.  (Hmm, those seem to be his solutions to many issues....)

To be clear, LOX is pretty much kilned off on anything Pale Ale malt or higher. AFAIK, that leaves only Pilsner malts affected by the presence of LOX.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2018, 07:18:18 PM »
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2018, 10:06:38 PM »
^^^^
Simply, not all oxidation is LOX-related?  Polyphenols oxidize, all sorts of things oxidize right through the life of the beer, requiring ongoing vigilance against oxygen.  LOX degradation of lipids leads to the particular problem of aldehydes leading to T-2-N.  But I'm thinking if you're excluding oxygen by other means anyway, these malts may seem less necessary or elegant in many cases.   Gallotannin (which you're likely using anyway as a chelator) supposedly prevents aldehyde formation; it might be simpler just to use that in addition to oxygen-exclusion measures (which you're also necessarily using anyway.)

An obvious market for these malts, it follows, would be Reinheitsgebot-bound brewers.  But that's not about elegance, just ridiculousness.   IMHO.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:39:28 PM by Robert »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2018, 12:54:08 AM »
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline BrewBama

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Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2018, 01:09:33 AM »
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.

Interesting that AEB only focuses on the oxidation due to LOX and chelating in their product description.


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« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:38:41 AM by BrewBama »
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2018, 01:16:17 AM »
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.

Interesting that AEB only focuses on the oxidation due to LOX and cheating in their product description.


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Especially since they only have a small % of gallotannins.

You are better off building your own:

1.) Pick your Meta dose;
2.) duplicate it with AA;
3.) Dose with BTB per the manufacturer specs.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline Robert

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2018, 01:28:04 AM »
Okay, you've got me.  I've been using meta and BTB,  I'll add the AA.   Is there anything else I need to know first?
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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2018, 01:35:05 AM »
Okay, you've got me.  I've been using meta and BTB,  I'll add the AA.   Is there anything else I need to know first?

I don’t think so.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com