Author Topic: Biere de Garde recipe critique  (Read 1566 times)

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 08:36:08 PM »
What are your solutions then Robert/dmtaylor?  I've heard nothing but process based solutions to increase head and head retention.  What do you do?

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2018, 08:36:24 PM »
I’ve been using the Hockhurz mash as described by Kai Troester and been getting great foam (and attenuation):

The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added.

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-162F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest.

Finally the mash may be raised to mash out temp and subsequently lautered.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing


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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2018, 08:40:20 PM »
What are your solutions then Robert/dmtaylor?  I've heard nothing but process based solutions to increase head and head retention.  What do you do?

As I've hinted at already, rye.  Simple as that.  Add 10% rye to any recipe.  Done.

And don't apologize for drinking beer.  Or being passionate about it.

Cheers to that.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 08:42:16 PM by dmtaylor »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2018, 08:54:45 PM »
My "process" for great foam is
All malt
Single infusion
No sparge
Moderate boil vigor
Dont sweat trub transfer
Oxygenate
Pitch active yeast to proper temp wort
Drop clear before closed transfer
Patient carbonation
Keep everything clean and sanitary

Offline Robert

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2018, 08:56:45 PM »
I've not tried rye, but wheat does work, even at 5% IME.  But most important -- and this is process based -- the mash program as outlined by BrewBama.  I hold the ~160° rest for a minimum of 15-30 minutes, even for highly fermentable worts, and a mash-off at 170°F for at least 10 minutes,  and I believe this step contributes to foam as well.  There is still amylase activity and glycoprotein synthesis going on, right up until there isn't.

Oh yeah, like Jim says, gentle boil.  Improves flavor too.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2018, 11:16:24 PM »
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2018, 11:49:47 PM »
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

Actually yes -- a lot of what was written in the big fancy books has been proven wrong in the past 5-10 years.  Books are out of date the minute they are published.
Dave

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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2018, 11:59:07 PM »
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

Actually yes -- a lot of what was written in the big fancy books has been proven wrong in the past 5-10 years.  Books are out of date the minute they are published.

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Offline Robert

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2018, 12:07:25 AM »
Yep, there's a lot of bad, or at least 50 years outdated, information that has been perpetuated in homebrew books and such.  On specifics, let's see.   Boiling decoctions doesn't cause astringency problems, so 170°F won't either.   DMS is not even a problem except with the occasional extra pale Pilsner malt, and even those are manufactured to minimize SMM (the precursor.)   It takes at least 30 minutes on heat to convert SMM, if it is even there, to DMS.  Then just a short uncovered boil will drive it off.  A gentle, circulating simmer with the lid on is far less damaging to wort.  And so on.  Like Jim's point on not sweating the trub removal.  Lots of stuff had validity once, but either materials have changed,  or brewing science has advanced and debunked old assumptions and practices. There are great resources to stay on top of things at least, like the forum for one!   There are also podcasts, websites,  professional textbooks (newer ones at least)...   But this forum is always eye opening and a good start.  Like right now.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 12:10:04 AM by Robert »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2018, 12:29:11 AM »
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.
Dave

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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 12:39:39 AM »
Thanks man.  I brew A LOT. Sometimes twice a week.  I read everything I can get my hands on.  I've been brewing for 10 years now.  I'd never claim to know everything, or even a fraction of what I want to.  I think that's what keeps me going.  But in my experiences, I've never had a protein rest destroy my head. But I only use it for my Weissen which is 50% wheat anyway.  Thanks for the info.  I guess I have to be more active on the forums.  Do you know of any science journals involving brewing that would be good to read?
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.

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Offline JT

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2018, 02:12:50 AM »
Let's talk about this protein-rest-killing foam-thing.  The last weissbier I brewed was held at 114° for some time.  Now that's upper acid, lower protein rest territory.  The grist was wheat and Weyermann pils malt.  Foam for days.  Is the thought that the wheat overcomes any foam damage by the low rest? 

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2018, 02:42:22 AM »
Let's talk about this protein-rest-killing foam-thing.  The last weissbier I brewed was held at 114° for some time.  Now that's upper acid, lower protein rest territory.  The grist was wheat and Weyermann pils malt.  Foam for days.  Is the thought that the wheat overcomes any foam damage by the low rest?

Do you step mash? I think many people who advise against the protein rest are right but are also single infusers.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2018, 02:45:30 AM »
I guess we got a bit off topic.  I'm just wondering why I've never ever had a head problem, even when using a protein rest.

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2018, 03:20:00 AM »
I guess we got a bit off topic.  I'm just wondering why I've never ever had a head problem, even when using a protein rest.

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