[samuel.workman]

I grew up on a farm and have a vineyard even today. I also study food, gmo's, etc. I know that when treating for unwanted pests, bugs or plants, a diversified approach is always superior, biologically speaking. For instance, if I treat for two years in a row with the same pesticide in the vineyard, I absolutely have bugs that the pesticide will not kill at the end of that time. It's the biggest issue in herbicides policy recently, where we have weeds that cannot be killed - actually first became a problem in your neck of the woods Denney. I cannot imagine that the microbes in a brewery are any different. I usually make sure to use 2 or 3 different kinds of sanitizers throughout the year.

By the way, note that hospitals are now hotbeds for staph in part because of over- reliance on one treatment. Life at the level of microbes adapts really quickly.

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[Big Monk]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

[Robert]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

Everything I've read suggests you've got a winner, although pH control (dead-nuts 5.0) is essential to get all the free chlorine in the form of hypochlorous acid at only 80ppm.  But it seems almost ideal.  I can, however, see how this might be as inconvenient for a commercial operation as some of their solutions (peracetic acid, chlorine dioxide) are inappropriate for us.  If I was a little more ambitious and a little more miserly, I could see going your route.  Someday.

(Also don't remember the stability of this stuff.  Iodophor can remain effective for hours to days. Derek, how long does it stay effective when properly mixed?))

[JT]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

Are you distilling the water yourself?

[Big Monk]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

Everything I've read suggests you've got a winner, although pH control (dead-nuts 5.0) is essential to get all the free chlorine in the form of hypochlorous acid at only 80ppm.  But it seems almost ideal.  I can, however, see how this might be as inconvenient for a commercial operation as some of their solutions (peracetic acid, chlorine dioxide) are inappropriate for us.  If I was a little more ambitious and a little more miserly, I could see going your route.  Someday.

(Also don't remember the stability of this stuff.  Iodophor can remain effective for hours to days. Derek, how long does it stay effective when properly mixed?))

I’m not sure. The goal is to mix what I need day of and use it then. The test batches I’ve made were right on at pH of 5 with the mix quoted above. Close enough at least.

[Big Monk]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

Are you distilling the water yourself?

Oh no. $0.87 per gallon at the grocery store. I brew with it as well.

[narcout]

The real lesson of this presentation is just that we shouldn't expect 12.5-25ppm for 2 minutes or 10 minutes  to perform as advertised, not that iodophor doesn't kill stuff.

As someone who has used it at that concentration for many years, I respectfully disagree.  In my experience, it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

 

[JT]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

Are you distilling the water yourself?

Oh no. $0.87 per gallon at the grocery store. I brew with it as well.

Water is probably the priciest part.  I like a Star San solution in distilled because it can be stored.  But this is good to know as well.

[ynotbrusum]

I remember when I first started homebrewing and my LHBS guy told me that when you want to be absolutely sure you are killing microbes, use boiling water.  Maybe that needs to be part of the regimen for parts that can take the heat (I’m thinking kegs and stainless fermenters ever few batches).

[mabrungard]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

How much bleach in that mixture and what percentage bleach are you using? I'm cautious.

The vinegar depresses the pH of the solution and that enhances effectiveness.

Another reasonably effective solution is a mixture of distilled vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. Its mixed at a ratio similar to that used to 'pickle' the lead out of brass fittings. Typically a bit more vinegar is added to help drive pH down a bit. That prepared solution needs to react for about a day before use to enhance its effectiveness. This is the dilute form of the Peracetic Acid that many breweries use. 

[Robert]

The "recipe" I've read is to prepare a solution of distilled water and 80ppm sodium hypochlorite (as bleach ranges from 5% to around 8% there's no set volumetric measure.)  Then use vinegar to bring the pH down to 5.0, at which level the free chlorine is nearly all hypochlorous acid, the effective ingredient.  Above 5.0 it may not be sufficient to sanitize at 80ppm (the old plain bleach and water target was 200ppm) and if you overshoot and pH approaches 4.0, chlorine gas will be released, more effective at killing brewers than microbes.

[goose]

Are any of you guys using SaniClean?  I started using this instead of Star San because it does not foam up.  It is basically the same thing except you have to use a bit more of it than Star San.  I use it in the concentration of 11 ml per gallon of RO water (this is the concentration that Five Star recommended when I was brewing at Hoppin' Frog.  Your LHBS can order it for you.
Yes, it is an acid and will eventually attack metals but so does bleach.  You just don't want extended contact time.  If I remember correctly, contact time for SaniClean is 5 minutes.
Another sanitizing alternative.

Another use regarding Iodophor, some breweries pack their plate chillers with it between brew days which is not a bad idea.

[Big Monk]

Im using Distilled water, Bleach and Vinegar for 3 reasons:

1.) It’s dirt cheap;
2.) @ 1 oz./1 oz. per 5 gallons of water it’s no-rinse;
3.) @ that same concentration and the proper pH, Charlie Talley identifies it as a “stone cold killer”.

How much bleach in that mixture and what percentage bleach are you using? I'm cautious.

Most bleach out of the bottle is 5% or 50,000 ppm. I'm careful to replicate Charlie Talley's recommendations to the letter:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3

He talks about concentration around the  18:00 minute mark.

In General:

1.) Use generic bleach (less sodium hydroxide) and buy small quantities
2.) Check color
3.) Verify %
4.) Use distilled water or RO water
5.) Add 1 oz. Bleach (~ 80 ppm) to the water
6.) Add 1 oz. Vinegar to water

NEVER ADD BLEACH DIRECTLY TO VINEGAR OR VISE VERSA or it will offgas chlorine gas.

...and if you overshoot and pH approaches 4.0, chlorine gas will be released, more effective at killing brewers than microbes.

I don't believe at the 1 oz. Bleach plus 1 oz. Vinegar per 5 gallons water concentration it's possible to go below 5 pH.

[Robert]

Are any of you guys using SaniClean?  I started using this instead of Star San because it does not foam up.  It is basically the same thing except you have to use a bit more of it than Star San.  I use it in the concentration of 11 ml per gallon of RO water (this is the concentration that Five Star recommended when I was brewing at Hoppin' Frog.  Your LHBS can order it for you.
Yes, it is an acid and will eventually attack metals but so does bleach.  You just don't want extended contact time.  If I remember correctly, contact time for SaniClean is 5 minutes.
Another sanitizing alternative.

Another use regarding Iodophor, some breweries pack their plate chillers with it between brew days which is not a bad idea.

I have sometimes used SaniClean as an acid rinse after alkaline, but there are other options for that.  My gripes with SaniClean are that it requires more per gallon than other products (~1oz/3gal, as Goose notes) and so is less economical; and it has a strong aroma so I don't feel comfortable with it as a no rinse.  The one thing I really  like it for is deodorizing lines or plastic vessels.  When the hop smell is stuck in there good, an overnight soak and rinse will get rid of it.  (That's right on the label, and, shockingly, it works as advertised!)

[denny]

The real lesson of this presentation is just that we shouldn't expect 12.5-25ppm for 2 minutes or 10 minutes  to perform as advertised, not that iodophor doesn't kill stuff.

As someone who has used it at that concentration for many years, I respectfully disagree.  In my experience, it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

Agreed. To me, the real lesson is that we're homebrewers.