Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: New Brewing Software  (Read 4000 times)

Big Monk

  • Guest
New Brewing Software
« on: July 19, 2018, 09:10:59 pm »
I’d like to announce the fruit of a recent collaboration between A.J. deLange and I which I’ve tentatively titled “The deLange-Scott Brewing Engine”.

It is a brewing spreadsheet which incorporates the proton deficit/charge accounting method of pH estimation long lauded by A.J.. Essentially it is a second generation pH estimation algorithm that finally leaves behind color based acidity approximations and other assumptions made by readily available water chemistry software and implements a technically and scientifically sound pH estimation method. In addition, it also allows for recipe input, bitterness estimation, color estimation, volume tracking and equipment profile, and extract estimation (including either No-Sparge or Batch Sparge).

It incorporates the common Low Oxygen brewing features such as metabisulfite dosing for mash and sparge water and Morey equation modifier for accounting for the lack of color pickup in the presence of oxygen.

In addition to a rigorously prepared set of calculations it utilizes the embedded Excel Solver and Macro buttons to offer unparalleled user control over the target pH and amounts of acid/base components to be used.

The sheet will be offered for free but protected to safeguard the integrity of the calculations and algorithm.

It should be available sometime next week following peer review by A.J. and the subsequent comment incorporation, error checking, and final formatting.

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4882
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 03:14:57 pm »
Very Cool.  Thanks for the work on our behalf, Derek.  You truly are a knower abouter.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 05:22:27 pm »
Very Cool.  Thanks for the work on our behalf, Derek.  You truly are a knower abouter.

It’s just too good to keep under wraps.

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 06:34:44 pm »
Very Cool.  Thanks for the work on our behalf, Derek.  You truly are a knower abouter.
+1

I am not one to use recipe or brew day and log software, and I do most all my calculations by hand -- just been doing it so long, I've never automated my process, and it just seems to get in the way of this old dog.  BUT.  I do sometimes use software to estimate pH.  It will be interesting to see how much more accurate your new sheet is.  And I know you do excellent work, Derek.  I was just a few minutes ago using the refractometer sheet you were so good as to share with me.  That's by far the most useful refractometer tool I've found, for its comprehensiveness and transparency. When I do use software, I want it to help me see and work things out myself, not think for me.  Clearly you are designing your sheets with the same end in mind.  I look forward to it, even if I don't take full advantage of it.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 07:04:56 pm »
Very Cool.  Thanks for the work on our behalf, Derek.  You truly are a knower abouter.
+1

I am not one to use recipe or brew day and log software, and I do most all my calculations by hand -- just been doing it so long, I've never automated my process, and it just seems to get in the way of this old dog.  BUT.  I do sometimes use software to estimate pH.  It will be interesting to see how much more accurate your new sheet is.  And I know you do excellent work, Derek.  I was just a few minutes ago using the refractometer sheet you were so good as to share with me.  That's by far the most useful refractometer tool I've found, for its comprehensiveness and transparency. When I do use software, I want it to help me see and work things out myself, not think for me.  Clearly you are designing your sheets with the same end in mind.  I look forward to it, even if I don't take full advantage of it.

For me the pleasure and satisfaction is multifaceted:

1.) I get to be in the vanguard of the second generation of pH estimation algorithms. More than that, we will be the tip of the spear;

2.) I get to help A.J. deLange, someone I respect immeasurably, realize something he thought would never be possible: bringing his simple (mathematically) yet difficult (inputs and implementation) algorithm to the masses;

3.) I get to give this robust program to people who can use it to help them make better beer.

Big Monk

  • Guest
New Brewing Software
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 08:52:00 pm »
Here are the malt classes created for the sheet:


Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 09:22:30 pm »
One thing jumps out at me:  you split out Maris Otter.  I see MO malts ranging from ~1.7°-3.7° SRM.  Yes, I'm stuck in the mindset of assuming that color is the best indicator of pH buffering,  but does this actually suggest that there is a significant variety-specific effect?  (That wouldn't surprise me, it would confirm some suspicions I've had.)
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 09:30:13 pm »
One thing jumps out at me:  you split out Maris Otter.  I see MO malts ranging from ~1.7°-3.7° SRM.  Yes, I'm stuck in the mindset of assuming that color is the best indicator of pH buffering,  but does this actually suggest that there is a significant variety-specific effect?  (That wouldn't surprise me, it would confirm some suspicions I've had.)

From my analysis of the data, I wasn’t able to reliably put Maris Otter in with Euro Pale Ale. It’s characteristics differed enough.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6056
New Brewing Software
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2018, 06:30:21 am »
It will be interesting to see if all the cypherin’ and ‘guzitas’ equal actual mash conditions and readings.  ...or, if estimates based on color is within the error factor of pH meters used by the homebrewer (aka good enough).  Since factors affected by pH are not neatly divided, do you see a need to take this further than one (or two) decimal place(s) ±.05?  IOW, optimum mash pH is 5.2 - 5.4 (depending who you ask), but <5.19 or >5.41 everything doesn’t exactly shut off. It’s a bit less cut and dried in the real world. Biology is messy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 06:37:41 am by BrewBama »

Big Monk

  • Guest
New Brewing Software
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2018, 06:49:08 am »
It will be interesting to see if all the cypherin’ and ‘guzitas’ equal actual mash conditions and readings.  ...or, if estimates based on color is within the error factor of pH meters used by the homebrewer (aka good enough).  Since factors affected by pH are not neatly divided, do you see a need to take this further than one (or two) decimal place(s) ±.05?  IOW, optimum mash pH is 5.2 - 5.4 (depending who you ask), but <5.19 or >5.41 everything doesn’t exactly shut off. It’s a bit less cut and dried in the real world. Biology is messy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What would you say if a program made a handful of assumptions with only individual errors of 0.01 but that added up to 0.1? IOW, a bunch of small errors adding up to a decent size one.

This model IS what happens in real mashes because by tracking charge we track the exchange of protons. The math is sound, but yes, I’ll be interested to see how it shakes out.

Also, you have to think about users who DO NOT measure pH. They are affected unknowingly by small percentage errors.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:14:43 am by Big Monk »

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6056
New Brewing Software
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2018, 07:19:33 am »
It will be interesting to see if all the cypherin’ and ‘guzitas’ equal actual mash conditions and readings.  ...or, if estimates based on color is within the error factor of pH meters used by the homebrewer (aka good enough).  Since factors affected by pH are not neatly divided, do you see a need to take this further than one (or two) decimal place(s) ±.05?  IOW, optimum mash pH is 5.2 - 5.4 (depending who you ask), but <5.19 or >5.41 everything doesn’t exactly shut off. It’s a bit less cut and dried in the real world. Biology is messy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What would you say if a program made a handful of assumptions with only individual errors of 0.01 but that added up to 0.1? IOW, a bunch of small errors adding up to a decent size one.

This model IS what happens in real mashes because by tracking charge we track the exchange of protons. The math is sound, but yes, I’ll be interested to see how it shakes out.

Also, you have to think about users who DO NOT measure pH. They are affected unknowingly by small percentage errors.

Agreed. I look forward to checking it out. ...but please divorce yourself from AJ’s arrogance (his words).  The [huge turn off by] German Brewing paper’s tone should be all the lesson required to understand we catch more flies with honey than we do with vinegar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2018, 07:56:58 am »
I don't see rye malt in the list. Where would it fall?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2018, 08:34:59 am »
It will be interesting to see if all the cypherin’ and ‘guzitas’ equal actual mash conditions and readings.  ...or, if estimates based on color is within the error factor of pH meters used by the homebrewer (aka good enough).  Since factors affected by pH are not neatly divided, do you see a need to take this further than one (or two) decimal place(s) ±.05?  IOW, optimum mash pH is 5.2 - 5.4 (depending who you ask), but <5.19 or >5.41 everything doesn’t exactly shut off. It’s a bit less cut and dried in the real world. Biology is messy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What would you say if a program made a handful of assumptions with only individual errors of 0.01 but that added up to 0.1? IOW, a bunch of small errors adding up to a decent size one.

This model IS what happens in real mashes because by tracking charge we track the exchange of protons. The math is sound, but yes, I’ll be interested to see how it shakes out.

Also, you have to think about users who DO NOT measure pH. They are affected unknowingly by small percentage errors.

Agreed. I look forward to checking it out. ...but please divorce yourself from AJ’s arrogance (his words).  The [huge turn off by] German Brewing paper’s tone should be all the lesson required to understand we catch more flies with honey than we do with vinegar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don’t take issue with A.J.’s presentation but won’t hold it against you if you do.


Big Monk

  • Guest
New Brewing Software
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2018, 08:45:26 am »
I don't see rye malt in the list. Where would it fall?

I’ll take a look. The only titration curves for rye were flaked rye, which was pretty close to flaked Wheat.

I bet if I pull my malt analysis tracking sheet and add 2-3 years worth of Rye malt from the Weyermann archives (as well as the American maltsters) I can come up with a very educated generalization for Rye malt as well.

Big Monk

  • Guest
Re: New Brewing Software
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2018, 01:02:08 pm »
It looks like I’ll be able to model Rye in with wheat. Which shouldn’t be startling as the flaked versions were so similar I made them a combined class.