Author Topic: Think I'm going back to whole cone  (Read 4247 times)

Offline majorvices

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 08:46:53 PM »
Not me...I'm sticking with pellets.  I find none of the disadvantages that you do, Robert.  In addition, pellets will stay in better condition longer than whole hops.  I don't get the vegetal taste that you describe.  AAMOF, I get that more with whole hops.  I've got a freezer full of both kinds, and pellets are my go to.  Just curious, Robert, have you tried cryo hops?

+1. The only reason I would stick with whole cone is for a hop back. There i simply no advantage to whole cone hops.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 09:10:07 PM »
Well in addition to their bulkiness that aids in something like a hopback, I find that whole hops are helpful in holding together the trub pile that exists in the kettle following whirlpooling. Otherwise, I don't see a valid reason to hold whole hops with higher regard than pellets. Pellets will always be my preferred option.
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Offline charlie

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 09:38:31 PM »
I like whole cone hops for the boil, and pellets for dry hopping. If I use pellets in the boil they inevitably get in my thermonator and make it tough to clean. Conversely I like pellets for dry hopping because they dissociate completely and give the wort maximum exposure, and then lay on the bottom out of the way when I keg.

I've been doing it that way for a few years, and it works for me.

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Offline RC

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 10:53:49 PM »
If I use pellets in the boil they inevitably get in my thermonator and make it tough to clean.

Whirlpooling and/or hop spider solves this issue quite nicely.

Offline Wilbur

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2018, 12:55:07 AM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

Offline RC

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 01:22:44 AM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

The only benefit to cryo hops is less beer loss. You can use half the weight of what you'd use with standard pellets but get the same flavor/aroma expression. This is a big deal on a commercial scale. On the homebrew scale, meh.  Otherwise, no different from standard pellets. Liquid loss is the only difference.

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 01:40:45 AM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned?
I don't doubt that a combination may be a good option sometimes.  Even using mostly whole cone in the kettle, a desirable late hop might only be available pelletized -- as some have mentioned, most imports are candidates.  And even when using pellets in the kettle, I have favored whole cone for dry hops.  I like to dry hop in the fermenter with a little activity left, and I repitch.  I can loosely contain the whole hops and keep the yeast clean.  (Again, equipment specific.  A conical would negate this.)

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2018, 02:08:14 AM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

The only benefit to cryo hops is less beer loss. You can use half the weight of what you'd use with standard pellets but get the same flavor/aroma expression. This is a big deal on a commercial scale. On the homebrew scale, meh.  Otherwise, no different from standard pellets. Liquid loss is the only difference.
Actually, the commercial brewers using lupulin, CO2 extract, oils, downstream products and the like have found their beers distinctly lacking in hop flavor and aroma, due to the absence of glycosides, found in the green vegetal matter they've elimiminated, and have had to add yet more advanced products to provide a "glycoside addition."  Somehow, if you're a process engineer at MillerCoors, you can convince the bean counters all this extra effort is worth it.  Even YCH is selling the green stuff left after making LupulN2 as "American Noble Hops."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:11:32 AM by Robert »
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Offline RC

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2018, 03:22:14 AM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

The only benefit to cryo hops is less beer loss. You can use half the weight of what you'd use with standard pellets but get the same flavor/aroma expression. This is a big deal on a commercial scale. On the homebrew scale, meh.  Otherwise, no different from standard pellets. Liquid loss is the only difference.
Actually, the commercial brewers using lupulin, CO2 extract, oils, downstream products and the like have found their beers distinctly lacking in hop flavor and aroma, due to the absence of glycosides, found in the green vegetal matter they've elimiminated, and have had to add yet more advanced products to provide a "glycoside addition."  Somehow, if you're a process engineer at MillerCoors, you can convince the bean counters all this extra effort is worth it.  Even YCH is selling the green stuff left after making LupulN2 as "American Noble Hops."

Not sure which commercial brewers you're referring to. Where I worked, we used lupulin and we most definitely did NOT find our beers "distinctly lacking in hop flavor and aroma." Quite the opposite, in fact. And this is the case with pretty much all brewers I know and talk to. Absence of glycosides causing a lack of hop flavor and aroma? Never heard this before, no idea what this means.

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2018, 12:27:16 PM »
^^^^
Much research and implementation by the "bigs" since the 1990s on this.  Some references given in Stan Hieronymous' book.  Glycosides are contained in the green matter in hops, and glycosidally bound substances, acted on by yeast, have been found to be a major component of kettle hop flavor and aroma.  Perhaps of more interest to brewers of more traditional beers than those craft brewers who have come to equate "hoppy" with "resinous."  My taste running to lagers and English accented ales, I look for subtler, more balanced and traditional hop character.  But the bottom line is, whatever you use, the green stuff has to be involved.   If lupulin is only added late and whole or T90 as kettle hops, that covers it.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2018, 02:54:32 PM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

Yeah, we did an experiment a few months ago and followed it up on the NBC show with a tasting after a few months of aging.  Cryo hops won.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 02:57:02 PM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

The only benefit to cryo hops is less beer loss. You can use half the weight of what you'd use with standard pellets but get the same flavor/aroma expression. This is a big deal on a commercial scale. On the homebrew scale, meh.  Otherwise, no different from standard pellets. Liquid loss is the only difference.

I've found that cryo hops give me a bigger, fresher hop aroma and flavor than other forms.  But I don't use 1/2 as much.  YCH bases that recommendation on AA and I don't care about that for late additions.  I use them 1:1 with other hop forms.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2018, 02:58:32 PM »
Any thought on using a combo of whole and cone as previously mentioned? Or a hop spider?

Denny, I haven't seen any real benefits to cryo hops, and variety is even more restricted than whole. Is there anything coming up in Exp Brew on them? I'm planning on a side by side, but my LHBS is out for a month or two.

The only benefit to cryo hops is less beer loss. You can use half the weight of what you'd use with standard pellets but get the same flavor/aroma expression. This is a big deal on a commercial scale. On the homebrew scale, meh.  Otherwise, no different from standard pellets. Liquid loss is the only difference.

Actually, the commercial brewers using lupulin, CO2 extract, oils, downstream products and the like have found their beers distinctly lacking in hop flavor and aroma, due to the absence of glycosides, found in the green vegetal matter they've elimiminated, and have had to add yet more advanced products to provide a "glycoside addition."  Somehow, if you're a process engineer at MillerCoors, you can convince the bean counters all this extra effort is worth it.  Even YCH is selling the green stuff left after making LupulN2 as "American Noble Hops."

I'm gonna need to see some specifics there, Robert.  Every commercial brewery I know loves them and finds them superior.
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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2018, 03:37:58 PM »
I agree. My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract. I have found it eliminates the hint of vegetalness I get from to long/strong boil with hops.

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2018, 05:19:32 PM »
The research I was referring to was related to big breweries,  Miller I believe did most of the research, who had abandoned any whole or pellet hops for extracts and "advanced" products exclusively.  They found that products providing alpha and oils only were lacking something critical, particularly in "kettle hop" flavor and aroma, which DeClerck had already identified as an important characteristic. (For that matter Wahl and Henius report on lupulin preparations and hop extracts being used at the turn of the 20th century,  and note that these should only replace a portion of the total hop bill or flavor and aroma will suffer.)  Glycosides were one element identified, but I'd expect there are lots of compounds in the vegetable matter that contribute to "hoppiness," and not just in the kettle.  And the research showed that yeast plays a significant part.  Craft and home brewers are using some form of "whole" hops in some part of their process, so this is less problematic.  But I think we should remember, when excitedly seeking new products to "increase aroma without adding vegetable matter," or get better bitterness that the veggie stuff is in fact part of the equation in flavor, aroma and even bitterness. As homebrewers, we've historically been focused on two things, % alpha (and CoH and beta maybe) and oil content.  But we've probably all learned from experience that oil content, for example, doesn't necessarily equate to value in dry hopping.  Try a "noble" or old-school English variety, for instance.  Beer's complicated, there's more going on than we first expect, I guess is the bottom line.  And if my starting point was that I think pellets overdo some things, that doesn't mean they aren't needed in proper proportion.
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