Author Topic: Think I'm going back to whole cone  (Read 4212 times)

The Beerery

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2018, 05:22:43 PM »
The research I was referring to was related to big breweries,  Miller I believe did most of the research, who had abandoned any whole or pellet hops for extracts and "advanced" products exclusively.  They found that products providing alpha and oils only were lacking something critical, particularly in "kettle hop" flavor and aroma, which DeClerck had already identified as an important characteristic. (For that matter Wahl and Henius report on lupulin preparations and hop extracts being used at the turn of the 20th century,  and note that these should only replace a portion of the total hop bill or flavor and aroma will suffer.)  Glycosides were one element identified, but I'd expect there are lots of compounds in the vegetable matter that contribute to "hoppiness," and not just in the kettle.  And the research showed that yeast plays a significant part.  Craft and home brewers are using some form of "whole" hops in some part of their process, so this is less problematic.  But I think we should remember, when excitedly seeking new products to "increase aroma without adding vegetable matter," or get better bitterness that the veggie stuff is in fact part of the equation in flavor, aroma and even bitterness. As homebrewers, we've historically been focused on two things, % alpha (and CoH and beta maybe) and oil content.  But we've probably all learned from experience that oil content, for example, doesn't necessarily equate to value in dry hopping.  Try a "noble" or old-school English variety, for instance.  Beer's complicated, there's more going on than we first expect, I guess is the bottom line.  And if my starting point was that I think pellets overdo some things, that doesn't mean they aren't needed in proper proportion.

I have read those studies, and am very familiar with  "kettle hop" flavor. Glad someone else is as well! Cheers.

Offline Wilbur

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2018, 08:05:26 PM »
I agree. My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract. I have found it eliminates the hint of vegetalness I get from to long/strong boil with hops.

RHG requires German varieties?

Denny, so your recommendation for late hops is to take your normal amount, and double it? Consider it done.

The Beerery

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2018, 08:31:19 PM »
I agree. My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract. I have found it eliminates the hint of vegetalness I get from to long/strong boil with hops.

RHG requires German varieties?

Denny, so your recommendation for late hops is to take your normal amount, and double it? Consider it done.

No.

Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 08:55:53 PM »
I agree. My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract. I have found it eliminates the hint of vegetalness I get from to long/strong boil with hops.

RHG requires German varieties?

Denny, so your recommendation for late hops is to take your normal amount, and double it? Consider it done.

Nope...it's to not halve it, like YCH says.  I use the same amount of cryo that I'd use if it was whole or pellets.
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Offline MNWayne

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2018, 01:57:41 AM »
Whole cone gets my vote.
Far better to dare mighty things....

Offline scrap iron

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2018, 01:33:13 PM »
I use whole cone mostly with some pellets. My BK is a keggle with a false bottom that covers the width of the bottom of the keg. I buy pounds of whole and smaller amounts of pellets. The filter bed of whole hops works well at collecting break and also does pretty good at filtering and holding sludge from pellets added later in the boil. I brew mainly American and English styles. For  the hop forward styles at KO I cool to 170 F add hops and recirculate with a pump for about 30 mins. The wort cools to about 150 F  after this time. When I pump it to the fermenter it is clear and free of the color green.  The beers smell and taste great. I must say I was not a hophead a few years ago but I do enjoy  more bitter and hoppy beers now. To those who say you can't use whole hops with a pump, yes you can if you use a large false bottom.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2018, 01:45:15 PM »
I use whole cone mostly with some pellets. My BK is a keggle with a false bottom that covers the width of the bottom of the keg. I buy pounds of whole and smaller amounts of pellets. The filter bed of whole hops works well at collecting break and also does pretty good at filtering and holding sludge from pellets added later in the boil. I brew mainly American and English styles. For  the hop forward styles at KO I cool to 170 F add hops and recirculate with a pump for about 30 mins. The wort cools to about 150 F  after this time. When I pump it to the fermenter it is clear and free of the color green.  The beers smell and taste great. I must say I was not a hophead a few years ago but I do enjoy  more bitter and hoppy beers now. To those who say you can't use whole hops with a pump, yes you can if you use a large false bottom.

My set up is similar, and whole cone hops work great, just like you say.
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Offline charlie

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2018, 03:37:43 AM »
Whirlpooling and/or hop spider solves this issue quite nicely.

I'll take your word for it, but the hop spider strikes me as a way to insure less exposure of the hops to the boiling wort, and I'm not going to screw around whirl-pooling while my favor/aroma hops bake out of the brew and turn into alpha acids.

My wort is in the fermentors at 68F within 10 minutes of flame-out, and I like it like that. :-)

Charlie
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 03:41:12 AM by charlie »
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2018, 12:21:22 PM »
Been thinking (I know, dangerous.)  Switched to pellets a couple of years ago, after nearly three decades of resistance, because it seemed inevitable.   Whole cone availability and variety on the wane, "everybody else is doing it...."  But I just never dug it.  I missed the more elegant flavor, bitterness and aroma, the natural filter bed, the clearer wort, the smoother, clearer beer with less ageing... oh yeah, better boil over prevention with FWH and cleaner yeast crop... I may just be an old fogey, but I missed whole hops.  So I just ordered a bunch. I'll make all my beers with fewer varieties if that's what it takes. The only drawback is, I kind of liked having room for food in the freezer.  Anybody else gone back, or felt the urge?

Get a 2nd freezer for the basement - problem solved. :)

Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2018, 12:45:28 PM »
Been thinking (I know, dangerous.)  Switched to pellets a couple of years ago, after nearly three decades of resistance, because it seemed inevitable.   Whole cone availability and variety on the wane, "everybody else is doing it...."  But I just never dug it.  I missed the more elegant flavor, bitterness and aroma, the natural filter bed, the clearer wort, the smoother, clearer beer with less ageing... oh yeah, better boil over prevention with FWH and cleaner yeast crop... I may just be an old fogey, but I missed whole hops.  So I just ordered a bunch. I'll make all my beers with fewer varieties if that's what it takes. The only drawback is, I kind of liked having room for food in the freezer.  Anybody else gone back, or felt the urge?

Get a 2nd freezer for the basement - problem solved. :)
Fermenting fridge, lagering freezer, keezer, all out of room.  I'm gonna need a bigger basement.  :) 
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Akron, Ohio

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Offline charlie

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2018, 01:09:16 AM »
My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract.

We used whole cone Magnum for bittering quite a bit in 2012, but everything we made tasted like citrus, so we went to Warrior for bittering, and the citrus flavor went away. About that same time we switched from Wyeast Greenbelt to WLP-001 yeast, and later I realized that the citrus flavor was more likely due to the Greenbelt yeast than the Magnum hops.

Charlie
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:11:55 AM by charlie »
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2018, 02:53:15 PM »
My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract.

We used whole cone Magnum for bittering quite a bit in 2012, but everything we made tasted like citrus, so we went to Warrior for bittering, and the citrus flavor went away. About that same time we switched from Wyeast Greenbelt to WLP-001 yeast, and later I realized that the citrus flavor was more likely due to the Greenbelt yeast than the Magnum hops.

Charlie

I thought I knew all the Wyeast strains, but Greenbelt is a new one on me.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2018, 04:20:01 PM »
My bittering has moved solely to high alpha ( magnum to be exact, I am RHG compliant afterall :) ) co2 extract.

We used whole cone Magnum for bittering quite a bit in 2012, but everything we made tasted like citrus, so we went to Warrior for bittering, and the citrus flavor went away. About that same time we switched from Wyeast Greenbelt to WLP-001 yeast, and later I realized that the citrus flavor was more likely due to the Greenbelt yeast than the Magnum hops.

Charlie

I thought I knew all the Wyeast strains, but Greenbelt is a new one on me.
Wyeast exclusive with Austin Homebrew Supply, circa 2010, not sure if it is still made. Don’t see it on either site.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2018, 04:45:40 PM »


I thought I knew all the Wyeast strains, but Greenbelt is a new one on me.
[/quote]
Wyeast exclusive with Austin Homebrew Supply, circa 2010, not sure if it is still made. Don’t see it on either site.
[/quote]

Darn you're smart!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2018, 05:08:44 PM »


I thought I knew all the Wyeast strains, but Greenbelt is a new one on me.
Wyeast exclusive with Austin Homebrew Supply, circa 2010, not sure if it is still made. Don’t see it on either site.
[/quote]

Darn you're smart!
[/quote]

I used to be.  ;)

Something’s stick in my memory, and the google helps.
Jeff Rankert
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AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!