Author Topic: Think I'm going back to whole cone  (Read 6062 times)

Online BrewBama

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Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2019, 05:48:17 PM »
While I agree I have not noticed a difference in the taste of the beer when whirlpooling and adding the resulting small amount of trub material to the fermenter, I have experienced difficulties with the cleanliness of the yeast cake itself.

I normally don’t harvest yeast, but this winter I had some Imperial brand liquid yeast shipped in and wanted to rinse it for reuse.  What I noticed is the trub dissolved in the wort was so finely incorporated in the cake post fermentation I had a heck of a time getting a clean yeast sample. I finally did and then propagated it up to a desirable pitch size for use it an upcoming brewday.

This yeast rinse episode was such a hassle that it has caused me to explore ways to further clarify the wort going into the fermenter.  Though I’ve added a false bottom to my BK which has helped, I continue to get more material in the post ferment yeast cake than I am wanting.

Therefore, I plan to use at least 33% and hopefully 100% whole leaf hop per brewday for the next few beers to see what the impacts are for myself.

However, I’ve found that actually finding whole leaf hops in varieties required for my planned recipes in usable quantities is the snag in that plan. I’ve discovered a wide variety and availability of pellets sold by the ounce and portions of a pound — whole leaf not so much.

One drawback I’ve read about is wort absorption of the whole leaf. But as I believe Robert found, if the trub is filtered I may actually realize a small net volume gain over leaving wort to hold the trub sludge that collapses when it hits air.  We’ll see.


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I have found no benefit to yeast rinsing, so I don't have to worry about a clean yeast sample.  It just doesn't matter of there's trub in it.

While I cannot argue that it doesn’t matter to you, I want to see if it matters to me. As you say; ”Until YOU do the experiments for yourself, you really don't know. So, get your brew on and find out!” and “Question the conventional wisdom and check it out.”

That’s my intent.

(Edit for clarification and adding a quote)


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« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 06:02:40 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2019, 06:07:06 PM »
While I agree I have not noticed a difference in the taste of the beer when whirlpooling and adding the resulting small amount of trub material to the fermenter, I have experienced difficulties with the cleanliness of the yeast cake itself.

I normally don’t harvest yeast, but this winter I had some Imperial brand liquid yeast shipped in and wanted to rinse it for reuse.  What I noticed is the trub dissolved in the wort was so finely incorporated in the cake post fermentation I had a heck of a time getting a clean yeast sample. I finally did and then propagated it up to a desirable pitch size for use it an upcoming brewday.

This yeast rinse episode was such a hassle that it has caused me to explore ways to further clarify the wort going into the fermenter.  Though I’ve added a false bottom to my BK which has helped, I continue to get more material in the post ferment yeast cake than I am wanting.

Therefore, I plan to use at least 33% and hopefully 100% whole leaf hop per brewday for the next few beers to see what the impacts are for myself.

However, I’ve found that actually finding whole leaf hops in varieties required for my planned recipes in usable quantities is the snag in that plan. I’ve discovered a wide variety and availability of pellets sold by the ounce and portions of a pound — whole leaf not so much.

One drawback I’ve read about is wort absorption of the whole leaf. But as I believe Robert found, if the trub is filtered I may actually realize a small net volume gain over leaving wort to hold the trub sludge that collapses when it hits air.  We’ll see.


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I have found no benefit to yeast rinsing, so I don't have to worry about a clean yeast sample.  It just doesn't matter of there's trub in it.

While I cannot argue that it doesn’t matter to you, I want to see if it matters to me. As you say; ”Until YOU do the experiments for yourself, you really don't know. So, get your brew on and find out!” and “Question the conventional wisdom and check it out.”

That’s my intent.

(Edit for clarification and adding a quote)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Absolutely!
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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2019, 06:17:08 PM »
Yep, I find the absorbed wort is less than the volume I'd lose trying to run clear wort off a layer of pellet debris, and I get crystal clear wort using the cones as a filter bed (I auto siphon, first I put a stainless scrubby over the end of the cane, then jam it down under the hops, and Bob's your uncle as they say.)

If you do have trub mixed into the yeast, rather than rinse, I think it would be better practice to grow it up through a starter, or better yet, just pitch the dirty slurry, allowing a little extra volume to  account for the non yeast material (my usual approach these days.)   As Klickitat Jim would say, trub doesn't propagate!

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2019, 08:05:55 PM »
I use a stainless mesh hop container - either the kind that hangs over the side of the boil kettle or the closed tube variety, typically.  For whole cone, I use a strainer bag suspended up away from the heat (but I haven't found whole cone easily for the hops I use most (Magnum for bittering, for example).  I am sure that they are out there, but I just go with what my LHBS has and that is typically pellet form.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2019, 09:35:15 PM »
I found in my system that I didn't get the hop utilization I wanted if I used mesh bags or even with one of those stainless things that hangs in the kettle.  I have gone back to adding pellets, loose. 
In the past I had been trying to find a way to keep all the debris from clogging my therminator and finally settled on running the hot wort through a Hearts Super Chiller https://heartshomebrew.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_213&products_id=878 with well water until the wort was 100F or so, then running it through the therminator with ice water and directly into the fermenters.
It helps if I start a whirlpool with my brewing paddle and continue the whirlpool while chilling.
Most of the trub stays in the kettle.
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Offline coolman26

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2019, 11:40:51 PM »
While I agree I have not noticed a difference in the taste of the beer when whirlpooling and adding the resulting small amount of trub material to the fermenter, I have experienced difficulties with the cleanliness of the yeast cake itself.

I normally don’t harvest yeast, but this winter I had some Imperial brand liquid yeast shipped in and wanted to rinse it for reuse.  What I noticed is the trub dissolved in the wort was so finely incorporated in the cake post fermentation I had a heck of a time getting a clean yeast sample. I finally did and then propagated it up to a desirable pitch size for use it an upcoming brewday.

This yeast rinse episode was such a hassle that it has caused me to explore ways to further clarify the wort going into the fermenter.  Though I’ve added a false bottom to my BK which has helped, I continue to get more material in the post ferment yeast cake than I am wanting.

Therefore, I plan to use at least 33% and hopefully 100% whole leaf hop per brewday for the next few beers to see what the impacts are for myself.

However, I’ve found that actually finding whole leaf hops in varieties required for my planned recipes in usable quantities is the snag in that plan. I’ve discovered a wide variety and availability of pellets sold by the ounce and portions of a pound — whole leaf not so much.

One drawback I’ve read about is wort absorption of the whole leaf. But as I believe Robert found, if the trub is filtered I may actually realize a small net volume gain over leaving wort to hold the trub sludge that collapses when it hits air.  We’ll see.


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I have found no benefit to yeast rinsing, so I don't have to worry about a clean yeast sample.  It just doesn't matter of there's trub in it.
I agree with this


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Offline coolman26

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2019, 11:49:22 PM »
As far as utilization with bags or stainless, I felt that I had that issue too. I really liked the filtration, so I just made one to the id of my kettle. It works great, but I like the idea of whole cone and commando. Another must try for myself I guess.


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Online BrewBama

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2019, 11:52:48 PM »
I watched another video recently that shows pellets and whole leaf dropped into separate erlenmeyer flasks of boiling water. The guys in the video are from Victory and they were touting their use of whole leaf. Though biased, they did make an interesting point: the water turned a brilliant green and filled with vegetation when pellets were added but the whole leaf turned its water a more yellow than green color.

They explained that this ‘yellow-ish-ness’ was simply the lupulin gland resins (what they’re after) vs the bright green ‘chlorophyll-ish-ness’ from the compressed strigs, bract, and other vegetive matter. 

Made me say “huh, look at that.”  I’d never seen that before.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2019, 11:57:19 PM »
Advantages of whole cone and commando (perhaps also pellet and commando) include:  Hops added before the start of the boil break surface tension and help prevent boil over; the action of the circulating material promotes protein coagulation and  break formation; and of course some increase in utilization.  And the ability to use whole cones as a filter medium.   These are all theoretical advantages you'll see in books, but I have found them to be very real in my own experience.

I also definitely think I taste that color difference, if you know what I mean, BrewBama!  (EDIT Mind you, that green stuff has its place.  In there is a part of hop flavor and bitterness you'd miss without it, like if you just used lupulin or certain advanced products.   But it's a matter of balance.  I find I can't help but get too much "green" with pellets.)


« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 12:09:59 AM by Robert »
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2019, 02:06:46 PM »
I watched another video recently that shows pellets and whole leaf dropped into separate erlenmeyer flasks of boiling water. The guys in the video are from Victory and they were touting their use of whole leaf. Though biased, they did make an interesting point: the water turned a brilliant green and filled with vegetation when pellets were added but the whole leaf turned its water a more yellow than green color.

They explained that this ‘yellow-ish-ness’ was simply the lupulin gland resins (what they’re after) vs the bright green ‘chlorophyll-ish-ness’ from the compressed strigs, bract, and other vegetive matter. 

Made me say “huh, look at that.”  I’d never seen that before.


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Sounds like they need to look at Cryo hops
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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2019, 02:28:58 PM »
See my reply just above.   You need the whole hop to get the whole effect.  I've read about a lot of research done by big brewers trying to go to advanced hop products that lacked components of the green material, only contained extracts from the lupulin.   They found it just didn't make beery beer until they developed advanced extracts of the green, vegetal matter, to add along with the lupulin products.   (References to this in Stan's book.)  It's way easier to just use the whole thing in the first place.  Whether you best achieve the effects with whole cones or pellets is a process decision to make in your brewery.
Rob Stein
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Offline MattyAHA

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2019, 07:06:32 PM »
these days i only brew 3 beers, a german pilsner, a dry stout and a sour beer once a year so i think im going back to leaf too esp for my g pils, hop direct sells lbs of hallertau for 10 bucks
Matty


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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2019, 07:22:03 PM »
these days i only brew 3 beers, a german pilsner, a dry stout and a sour beer once a year so i think im going back to leaf too esp for my g pils, hop direct sells lbs of hallertau for 10 bucks

If you don't brew often, pellets may be a better choice.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2019, 07:31:56 PM »
My key to buying bulk whole cone has been to accept that I'll have no room for meat in my freezer. 

Wait, that's not what I meant to say!  ;D 

Seriously, I just have stopped focusing on specific hop varieties,  and think in terms of categories of hops.  A few varieties can make a wide range of beers.  Even though like MattyAHA I don't make a very wide range of beers either.
Rob Stein
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Offline MattyAHA

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2019, 07:42:08 PM »
yeah Idk, i just like whole hops better, been using pellets for awhile they are great but for me there is something about using the hop in its dried natural state, just feels right, if i make an ipa which i dont anymore i will use pellets but for a pils give me some leaf
Matty


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