Author Topic: Think I'm going back to whole cone  (Read 3777 times)

Offline MattyAHA

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2019, 04:00:24 AM »
i was lucky to make it out of regular school
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Offline narcout

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2019, 07:17:32 PM »
The whole leaf tea has a more appealing golden color. The pellet tea has a green hue to the tea — it looks dingy. ...but looks aren’t everything.

The color difference is interesting.  Could it be caused by different ratios of chlorophyll to lupulin glands?

As mentioned, the taste of the whole leaf is less harsh, or sharp, than the pellet tea. There was a *very* noticeable sharpness to the pellet tea.

Was the pellet tea just more bitter or was it the quality of the bitterness? An ounce of pellets has more bittering potential than an ounce of whole cone hops, so I would expect at least more bitterness.

The most remarkable difference was how fast the whole leaf sample drained over the pellet sample.

I don't find that aspect very surprising.  I think with pellets, the idea is to position the pick up tube such that it draws off the clear wort from the top of the pellet sludge (or just bag the pellets), while the idea with whole cone hops is to use a pick up tube that draws from underneath a false bottom so  the hops can form a filter bed (I've personally never tried it though).

Cool experiment.
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Offline BrewBama

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Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2019, 07:41:26 PM »

The color difference is interesting.  Could it be caused by different ratios of chlorophyll to lupulin glands?


It could be. I say that because the next morning it was more golden than green. It seemed to settle out.


Was the pellet tea just more bitter or was it the quality of the bitterness? An ounce of pellets has more bittering potential than an ounce of whole cone hops, so I would expect at least more bitterness.


It was very noticeably more bitter.

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« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:44:02 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2019, 07:42:21 PM »
The thing to keep in mind here is that the characteristics of the tea may have nothing to do with the characteristics of the final beer.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2019, 07:44:21 PM »
The thing to keep in mind here is that the characteristics of the tea may have nothing to do with the characteristics of the final beer.

Very true


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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2019, 08:30:36 PM »
The thing to keep in mind here is that the characteristics of the tea may have nothing to do with the characteristics of the final beer.
May, but IME it does.  The character of pellet-hopped beers is different.  But not necessarily in the same proportion,  in the same respects, as the tea.  Also, it matters what style you're making.  I find the character of whole cone far more pleasant in the stodgy styles I favor.  Some styles (pretty much all current varieties of American IPAs, for example) didn't exist before pellets and maybe couldn't without them.  The character achieved with pellets seems to have inspired brewers to pursue and capitalize on that nature.  My feeling with pellets is that even late additions give you every aspect of the hop -- bitter, flavor, aroma, vegetal -- immediately,  in spades, in your face.  With whole cone I can better control the degree in which each aspect of hoppiness presents.   But tea is indeed only suggestive.  Experimental Tea Making meets Experimental Brewing... ?
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2019, 11:41:20 PM »
... immediately,  in spades, in your face. ...

This is a great descriptor of the sharpness I detected in the pellet tea. I said “Wow!”


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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2019, 12:10:55 PM »
Another probable advantage of whole cone is less polyphenols in wort and beer.  We hear a lot of advice about careful milling, to ensure we don't have too many fine husk particles in the mash to avoid excess tannin extraction.   The same people focused on this seem to give not a thought to dumping a heap of micronized hop bracts right into the boil.  I think I've seen a real difference in clarity and stability as well as flavor,  will be interested in whether BrewBama notices a difference.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2019, 02:39:49 PM »
Another probable advantage of whole cone is less polyphenols in wort and beer.  We hear a lot of advice about careful milling, to ensure we don't have too many fine husk particles in the mash to avoid excess tannin extraction.   The same people focused on this seem to give not a thought to dumping a heap of micronized hop bracts right into the boil.  I think I've seen a real difference in clarity and stability as well as flavor,  will be interested in whether BrewBama notices a difference.

OTOH, using American Nobles, I've been working on utilizing ployphenols to enhance your beer.  It seems it's not all downsides to tannins.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2019, 03:09:30 PM »
Indeed, polyphenols are an important facet of beer flavor in hoppier beers. Tannins are a polyphenol and they are important in wine and cider. So there is little doubt that they are a welcome component in brewing. The only question is the level that your hopping methods take the polyphenol level in your beer. 

I suppose that pelletized hops could contribute more polyphenols to beer since the hop matter is highly macerated. All those broken cell edges from the broken up hop matter could increase the potential for drawing polyphenols from that matter into the wort. An elevated wort pH increases that potential. The other thing to recognize is that hop matter itself often raises wort pH. Maybe if you're getting more phenolic notes in your hoppy beers, it may be time to drop their wort pH so that the pH raising action of those hop additions is better neutralized.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 03:11:34 PM by mabrungard »
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Offline narcout

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2019, 03:30:35 PM »
I suppose that pelletized hops could contribute more polyphenols to beer since the hop matter is highly macerated.

Is there any data on that? 

Ounce by ounce, which contains more leaf material: pellets or whole cone?

And we need to account for the fact that since they have more bittering potential, by weight you are generally using less pellets than whole cone.

A bit off topic, but there are some hop extracts available that contain no polyphenols.  I wonder if they greatly reduce chill haze.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2019, 03:33:57 PM »
Ounce by ounce, which contains more leaf material: pellets or whole cone?

They are the same. The only difference is the processing. By the way, I grow Cascade and Centennial at home and I store those hops by drying and then pounding them into a die to produce something resembling the hop plugs that we used to be able to get.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #102 on: March 16, 2019, 03:48:15 PM »
Ounce by ounce, which contains more leaf material: pellets or whole cone?

They are the same. The only difference is the processing. By the way, I grow Cascade and Centennial at home and I store those hops by drying and then pounding them into a die to produce something resembling the hop plugs that we used to be able to get.

Based on what I've learned in 5 years at Hop and Brew School, I agree with this.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #103 on: March 16, 2019, 06:00:28 PM »


Another probable advantage of whole cone is less polyphenols in wort and beer.  We hear a lot of advice about careful milling, to ensure we don't have too many fine husk particles in the mash to avoid excess tannin extraction.   The same people focused on this seem to give not a thought to dumping a heap of micronized hop bracts right into the boil.  I think I've seen a real difference in clarity and stability as well as flavor,  will be interested in whether BrewBama notices a difference.

OTOH, using American Nobles, I've been working on utilizing ployphenols to enhance your beer.  It seems it's not all downsides to tannins.

As I've often mentioned in referring to the downside of lupulin or some extracts.  Not just polyphenols, dozens of compounds in the green stuff essential to bitterness,  flavor, foam, and all the qualities of beer.  It's just a matter of balance, and different forms of hops make the right balance more or less easy to achieve.
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Offline denny

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Re: Think I'm going back to whole cone
« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2019, 08:43:54 PM »


Another probable advantage of whole cone is less polyphenols in wort and beer.  We hear a lot of advice about careful milling, to ensure we don't have too many fine husk particles in the mash to avoid excess tannin extraction.   The same people focused on this seem to give not a thought to dumping a heap of micronized hop bracts right into the boil.  I think I've seen a real difference in clarity and stability as well as flavor,  will be interested in whether BrewBama notices a difference.

OTOH, using American Nobles, I've been working on utilizing ployphenols to enhance your beer.  It seems it's not all downsides to tannins.

As I've often mentioned in referring to the downside of lupulin or some extracts.  Not just polyphenols, dozens of compounds in the green stuff essential to bitterness,  flavor, foam, and all the qualities of beer.  It's just a matter of balance, and different forms of hops make the right balance more or less easy to achieve.

What I've found in working with cryo hops a LOT is that it's all in where and how you use them.  Big surprise, huh?  My new project is kinda building my own hops by using both the nobles and cryo to customize the lupulin/vegetation ratios.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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