Author Topic: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions  (Read 2336 times)

Offline Uvolnit

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NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« on: August 21, 2018, 01:56:59 AM »
So was my first BIAB after 14 custom extract batches that were fairly successful.  I lived in Colorado near Boulder and researched NEIPA's a good bit as a few breweries there were brewing great NEIPA's successfully that I loved (especially Weldworks which posted some recipe ideas that I followed).
After much research, I thought my recipe was solid but it didn't turn out anything like I expected.  Like I said, it was my first BIAB batch so that's a new learning experience which may have changed/ruined part of the beer.

I tried the first bottle tonight and it was dry, bitter, astringent, not as aromatic as expected, not as flavorful as expected, much drier than expected, not hazy at all, much darker in color than expected. Here's a picture:


BIAB malts:
5# golden promise
1# flaked oats
.5# flaked barley
.25# wheat
.25# honey malt

Strike temp 159 deg F.  Probably a mistake but didn't wrap with blanket or anything, and dropped to 152F @ 45 mins and 145F @ 60 mins.

+4# Light Pils DME

Hops:
El Dorado, Mosaic, Amarillo (equal parts)
.15oz each @ FWH
.85 each @ flameout
1oz each @ whirlpool below 185F for 30 mins
Dry hop 1 oz each at 48 hrs after pitch during fermentation
Dry hop 1 oz each for 5 days before bottling

4.5 gallon initial wort water volume and "sparged" by running 170F water over bag of grains in separate container to reach boil volume of about 6 gallons.
Water was gallon bottled spring water.  Added 1/4 TBS gypsum into boil but didn't check the water profile.  A brew shop I used to go to said to put some in for any IPA. 

Yeast was WYeast 1318 from a 1L healthy starter with WYeast yeast nutrient. 

Fermented in a glass carboy the entire time at around 69F.  I cold crashed for 24 hrs in a chest freezer before bottling.  Carbonation is perfect.

Didn't measure OG but FG read 1.006.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:53:00 AM by Uvolnit »

Offline joelv

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2018, 02:25:47 AM »
The recipe looks like it would produce a much lighter colored beer and isn’t too different from ones I’ve used.

I’ve read oxygen pickup can really alter color in NEIPA sometimes adding a purple tint.

The Brulosophy crew cover an experiment with color in NEIPA.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/12/the-impact-of-bottle-conditioning-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/


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Offline kramerog

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2018, 02:57:45 AM »
Regarding dryness, I recommend mashing at a higher temperature and shooting for ~100 ppm chloride form calcium chloride and ~100 ppm sulfate from calcium sulfate.

Regarding flavor and aroma, the culprit appears to be oxidation or volatilization.  I don't bottle much anymore so I can't give you  recommendations for avoiding oxidation and bottling during bottling.  Nevertheless consider not crashing your beer as that usually sucks in air or using a contraption to avoid suck back of air.

Offline James K

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2018, 05:55:33 AM »
Regarding dryness, I recommend mashing at a higher temperature and shooting for ~100 ppm chloride form calcium chloride and ~100 ppm sulfate from calcium sulfate.

Regarding flavor and aroma, the culprit appears to be oxidation or volatilization.  I don't bottle much anymore so I can't give you  recommendations for avoiding oxidation and bottling during bottling.  Nevertheless consider not crashing your beer as that usually sucks in air or using a contraption to avoid suck back of air.

I agree with this. East Neipa should be mashed at a higher temp than a west coast IPA because you want the longer chain sugars present. Also water chemistry can play a factor regarding flavor because the hops will shine better with higher rates as mentioned in the copied post.

I do think there may be a bit of oxidation occurring which could lead to a darker beer, but I do not know what the intended srn is supposed to be.

Your FG indicates a low mash temp. Neipa should be 1.010-1.015
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Offline WhiteHausBrews

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2018, 05:55:37 PM »
Not much new to add, just want to throw an emphasis on water chemistry with a relatively high Chloride. I'd say even go 140 on Cl and 100 SO4. Using CaCl has the added benefit of boosting Calcium which is said to help with a more full mouthfeel. Cheers!

Offline Uvolnit

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 12:47:46 AM »
The recipe looks like it would produce a much lighter colored beer and isn’t too different from ones I’ve used.

I’ve read oxygen pickup can really alter color in NEIPA sometimes adding a purple tint.

The Brulosophy crew cover an experiment with color in NEIPA.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/12/the-impact-of-bottle-conditioning-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/


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Agreed.  Not sure why it's that dark.  I'll take a read from your link, could be interesting.  I didn't rack to secondary to reduce oxygen exposure.



Regarding dryness, I recommend mashing at a higher temperature and shooting for ~100 ppm chloride form calcium chloride and ~100 ppm sulfate from calcium sulfate.

Regarding flavor and aroma, the culprit appears to be oxidation or volatilization.  I don't bottle much anymore so I can't give you  recommendations for avoiding oxidation and bottling during bottling.  Nevertheless consider not crashing your beer as that usually sucks in air or using a contraption to avoid suck back of air.

I plan to brew this beer again but changing some things.  The water profile is definitely the big one and mash temp at the high end.  I never messed with water profile for any of my varying brews but seems that a NEIPA definitely needs it to get anywhere close to that style. 
I'm not going to cold crash the next variant.  I am concerned it dropped some hop oils/aromatics but read other places online that others did cold crash with no issue.

Offline jimssaint87@gmail.com

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 01:33:09 AM »
Not much new to add, just want to throw an emphasis on water chemistry with a relatively high Chloride. I'd say even go 140 on Cl and 100 SO4. Using CaCl has the added benefit of boosting Calcium which is said to help with a more full mouthfeel. Cheers!
Water chemistry is a key NEIPA, and would aid in haze. However, lack of haze is not and should be considered a fail, if taste and mouth feel are desirable. See the latest pod cast from Brad Smith and Beersmith featuring Michael Tonsmeir on this subject.


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Offline Pinchart

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 06:54:40 PM »
I had exactly the same problem with my first NEIPA. It was very good when bottling with a beautiful grapefruit visual aspect and, a few weeks after, it became a brown light and insipid liquid that I was obliged to throw away.
The original of this disaster was oxydation. Now, on every step,  I add CO2.
The last one was excellent and still is (one bottle left after 10 weeks).

Offline Uvolnit

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2018, 10:12:43 PM »
Not much new to add, just want to throw an emphasis on water chemistry with a relatively high Chloride. I'd say even go 140 on Cl and 100 SO4. Using CaCl has the added benefit of boosting Calcium which is said to help with a more full mouthfeel. Cheers!
Water chemistry is a key NEIPA, and would aid in haze. However, lack of haze is not and should be considered a fail, if taste and mouth feel are desirable. See the latest pod cast from Brad Smith and Beersmith featuring Michael Tonsmeir on this subject.


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Understand and agree.  The mouthfeel is a tad fuller than a clean, west coast IPA but not as full and silky as I wanted.  I'll check out the podcast you mention.


I had exactly the same problem with my first NEIPA. It was very good when bottling with a beautiful grapefruit visual aspect and, a few weeks after, it became a brown light and insipid liquid that I was obliged to throw away.
The original of this disaster was oxydation. Now, on every step,  I add CO2.
The last one was excellent and still is (one bottle left after 10 weeks).


After looking at the Brulosopy experiment mentioned above the oxygen is definitely a culprit for the darker color.  How/what do you do/use to add the CO2 into the fermenter?  Any rather simple way to add CO2 to the bottles?  Kegging would be much easier for that, and I plan on getting into that in the near future.

Offline mharding73

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2018, 01:21:32 AM »
No need to add co2 to the fermenter. 

Buy a CO2 bottle.  Add CO2 to the bottle bucket.  Then add CO2 to each bottle before filling.  It will help. 

Offline Pinchart

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 08:01:59 AM »
After looking at the Brulosopy experiment mentioned above the oxygen is definitely a culprit for the darker color.  How/what do you do/use to add the CO2 into the fermenter?  Any rather simple way to add CO2 to the bottles?  Kegging would be much easier for that, and I plan on getting into that in the near future.

I use this device : https://www.brouwland.com/fr/nos-produits/brassage/futs-pression-et-accessoires/soda-kegs-et-accessoires/d/keg-charger-cartouche-co2
You should find something similar in your country.
I spray some CO2 in each bottle before adding the beer and I'm very cautious to evitate contact with O2 when bottling.
It's very easy. A very fast spray (half a second) and it's done.


Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2018, 03:14:03 PM »
NEIPA is one of those styles that is so sensitive to oxidation that it does not bottle well using normal homebrewing bottling tactics. It's a fragile beer style and the usual bottling bucket technique introduces too much air contact.

If you don't have the ability to keep beer on tap then second best option would be to get equipment to pressure transfer from fermenter to a keg, force carbonate in the keg and bottle with a counterpressure filler. That's basically everything to keg minus a kegerator though.

Next best option IMO would be to get a small CO2 tank, flush bottles with CO2, rack directly into bottles and dose the bottles with priming sugar or carbonation tabs.
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Offline Uvolnit

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2018, 02:09:09 AM »
NEIPA is one of those styles that is so sensitive to oxidation that it does not bottle well using normal homebrewing bottling tactics. It's a fragile beer style and the usual bottling bucket technique introduces too much air contact.

If you don't have the ability to keep beer on tap then second best option would be to get equipment to pressure transfer from fermenter to a keg, force carbonate in the keg and bottle with a counterpressure filler. That's basically everything to keg minus a kegerator though.

Next best option IMO would be to get a small CO2 tank, flush bottles with CO2, rack directly into bottles and dose the bottles with priming sugar or carbonation tabs.

Understood.  I'm working on making a keezer so kegging is upcoming soon.  Flushing every bottle with CO2 would be insane and worth the $ to upgrade to a keezer and kegging.  Great to know the info about bottling, found out some first-hand experimentation as seen in my next post.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 02:27:11 AM by Uvolnit »

Offline Uvolnit

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 02:17:16 AM »
Interesting find.  Right now tonight I poured 2 bottles into a glass, one was the last bit of the bottling bucket so only half a bottle fill, the other, a full bottle.  The half bottle fill poured nasty looking and dark, the hop aroma almost non-existing and taste not great, while the full bottle pour is quite good.  I'm sure if the oxygen was rid of the bottles while filling every bottle would be amazing as predicted.  Definite oxidation happening in bottles that I never expected.  Can't wait to keg and pre-fill with CO2.
Do commercial breweries CO2 prime bombers before filling?


Offline joelv

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Re: NEIPA Failure Brew - Need Opinions
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 12:41:27 AM »
I know a lot of people (me included), described the effects of O2 on NEIPA.

I’m going to offer though, that the color in those photos seems pretty extreme to think it is just a matter of O2 and what happens when oxidation and NEIPA combine.

Your grain bill should not produce a beer that dark, even with the moderate O2 that occurs with bottles and time. Your grain bill seems to be in the 5-6 range and these photos almost look like 14-18 SRM. That seems much more than what happens with some oxidation.

Is there any way any of the grains in your posted recipe are different than what is posted.

This is a bit of a head scratcher in my opinion. If someone else said it would darken THAT much, I’d be more open to thinking I’m wrong, but that is pretty dark.


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