Author Topic: Score another for cloudy wort  (Read 4261 times)

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Score another for cloudy wort
« on: September 14, 2018, 02:13:09 pm »
Recent study found that very turbid wort carrying 50 times the normal amounts of solids both into the boil and into the fermenter, thus increasing the amount of both zinc and lipids, led to more rapid fermentation, healthier yeast, no need for zinc supplementation, and no need for aeration, as the lipids provided meant yeast could skip the aerobic phase and just take up sterols rather than synthesize them.  Also surprisingly led to reduced esters and fusels.  And note:  this was done by -- gasp -- Germans!  Recent MBAA podcast, and abstract here http://tq.mbaa.com/Abstracts/2018/TQ-55-1-0225-01.htm

Takeaway:  RDWHAHB
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25390
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 02:24:11 pm »
I gotta say I'm not surprised
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4387
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 02:38:01 pm »
Does not surprise me either, but now I have to re-think my clear wort transfers with yeast supplement added to the late boil.  Everything old is new again!
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Online dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4484
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 03:13:56 pm »
Germans love David Hasselhoff.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 661
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 03:35:19 pm »
Sounds interesting, although a single study is just that, a single study. I'd read the paper if it were free. Did the study also examine the effect on final clarity and shelf life?

Offline narcout

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2139
  • Los Angeles, CA
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 03:37:53 pm »
I don't know if it's a contradiction so much as a balancing between competing goals.

For example, we know cloudy wort has a significantly higher concentration of unsaturated fatty acids.  UFAs contribute to yeast viability and can inhibit potentially undesirable esters.  On the other hand, they are detrimental to foam stability and can accelerate staling. 

It doesn't have to be a binary proposition.
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 04:41:19 pm »
Sounds interesting, although a single study is just that, a single study. I'd read the paper if it were free. Did the study also examine the effect on final clarity and shelf life?
I too would read it if free.  :)  The researcher interviewed in the podcast indicated no downside.  "I see no benefit from clear wort" or such words.  I just assume that Germans would be sensitive to such issues.  Maybe someone who has access to the paper will clarify (pun intended) this. FWIW in my experience, (slightly) cloudy wort seems (anecdotally) to give clearer, more stable beer.  Experiments by Stone last year also initially yielded such a result, but they gave up because they were fouling their heat exchanger.

(I think on most homebrew systems it would be difficult to achieve the level of turbidity this new German system allows.  But the old homebrew wisdom still holds true, a little trub is just yeast food.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 04:58:37 pm by Robert »
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 07:42:11 pm »
lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 09:07:08 pm »
Well, they're selling novel brewhouse systems that specifically produce this level of turbidity, so some Germans apparently aren't laughing.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

The Beerery

  • Guest
Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2018, 05:58:24 am »
1 german is not all Germans.  Selling brewing systems means nothing. Look how many subpar brewing systems we sell. 

It’s been studied as nauseam that cloudy wort contains more “stuff”. Of course it does that’s literally why it’s cloudy.  I am not going to debate which is better.  There are tons of abstracts and full papers on it. 

One tip though. When you are trying to follow professional german brewing tactics my first stop wouldn’t be MBAA (America’s) it should be the country of origin and in this case brewingscience.de. Conversely if I was looking to brew NEIPA I would not look at brewingscience.de.  If it’s German and backed by BS, it’s legit.  If it’s not... it’s fake news. Gotta understand the sources and the context, that’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:14:35 am by The Beerery »

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2018, 07:06:37 am »
True, what's good for German styles may not align with other styles.  But beyond that, even within a style or tradition,  I think the balancing of goals narcout brings up must be considered, and the type of brewery and market then comes into play.  These new brewhouses, I gather, appeal to small craft and pub type brewers in Germany, who like elsewhere, want quick equipment turnaround because they are making smaller amounts of a large number of products, quickly sold on premises or locally.  Most of the literature has addressed the needs of large scale producers with retail and export sales in mind, where long term stability becomes paramount. (And yet they still use green bottles...  ??? )  Maybe on the homebrew level the question is, do you want today's brew to survive in bottle until next year's NHC, or are you trying to have a keg that will be entirely consumed at an event in two weeks?  Or in between?  It is a balancing act.  But I think the risks and benefits all around can be overstated (especially for homebrewers) unless you are pushing your system to extremes. IMHO.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline goose

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1112
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 07:18:40 am »
I have always wondered if it is better to allow the yeast to synthesize sterols rather than absorbing them up and skipping the aerobic phase.  It seems to me that the yeast might be more robust if they went through the process of synthesizing sterols for stronger cell walls and better budding.  But that is just me.

I too agree with Rob: RDWHAHB
Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ)
Wayne County Brew Club
Mansfield Brew Club
BJCP Certified
AHA Governing Committee Member

The Beerery

  • Guest
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2018, 07:59:16 am »
True, what's good for German styles may not align with other styles.  But beyond that, even within a style or tradition,  I think the balancing of goals narcout brings up must be considered, and the type of brewery and market then comes into play.  These new brewhouses, I gather, appeal to small craft and pub type brewers in Germany, who like elsewhere, want quick equipment turnaround because they are making smaller amounts of a large number of products, quickly sold on premises or locally.  Most of the literature has addressed the needs of large scale producers with retail and export sales in mind, where long term stability becomes paramount. (And yet they still use green bottles...  ??? )  Maybe on the homebrew level the question is, do you want today's brew to survive in bottle until next year's NHC, or are you trying to have a keg that will be entirely consumed at an event in two weeks?  Or in between?  It is a balancing act.  But I think the risks and benefits all around can be overstated (especially for homebrewers) unless you are pushing your system to extremes. IMHO.

Exactly.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8604
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2018, 10:00:32 am »
I used to give my chilled wort about 20 minutes to settle, then I would auto-siphon it to my fermenter, trying to get the clearest wort I could. But after seeing the Brulosophy experiment, and hearing about the Stone Brewing study, I put it to the test and tried just dumping the whole thing to the fermenter. I liked the results.

I dont dump the whole thing any more, but I also dont do the 20 minute settling wait, and I dont use an auto-siphon any more. Once I've whirlpool-chilled to pitching temp, I transfer via pump. My pickup tube leaves about a 1/2" in the kettle, which is mostly hops.

The Brulosophy experiment is just one data point. The Stone Study is just one data point. This new study is just one data point. My personal experience is just anecdotal. The nice thing though is that it's less work, less time waiting, and I like the results.




Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25390
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Score another for cloudy wort
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2018, 10:15:06 am »
My question is "why did it take homebrewers so long to realize this."
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell