[Robert]

How much hops did you add?  Has it happened more than once?  How can you track  it to disaster in the hops?

I believe his point is that fermentation was stable for several weeks, until the 0.67 oz of dry hops were added.

My question on this is: The typical advice for drinking hoppy beers, commercial or homebrew, has been to drink them as fresh as possible to avoid "freshness" (aroma, flavor, whatever). How much of that issue is due to aging/oxidizing hop compounds vs. change in the beer related to these enzymes? I imagine that'd be more of an issue for packaged beer.

Yes, but there is no evidence that it was diastase in the hops that did it.  This is a data point.  As such, a single instance only provides material for further study, not a conclusion.  Given that I haven't seen any other reports of such a small amount of dry hops having this effect, I can't take this as even close to conclusive.  It's like saying "I danced in my front yard to keep flying elephants away and I haven't seen any flying elephants, so it must work".

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Denny, shouldn't you also have to prove it only happens at extremely high levels of dry hopping based on your statements?

In my mind, there's not enough information for anyone to make any blanket statements. We don't know how hop variety or growing conditions affects enzyme content. However, let me add a bit more. Here's a study from 1941:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1941.tb06070.x

The conclusion of Brown and Morris that dry-hopping
in cask produces an appreciable quantity of sugar in dextrinous beer, and so
promotes "after fermentation," has been confirmed. In addition, the opinion
has been formed that one or more additional factors, at present unknown, operate
in stimulating "after fermentation" during dry-hopping.
The enzyme maltase has been shown to be present in dry hops.

Experiment 4 seems to indicate the the quantity of hops is not as large of a factor (no variation in maltase production with increasing hopping ratio, from 1g/100 cc). 1 g/100 CC=1.34 oz/5 gallons if my math is correct, which is not an extraordinarily high dry hopping rate. What do we know about enzymes? They work at a range of pH and temperature, and will work until they are denatured (typically by temperature or pH). Therefore, my hypothesis would be that any introduction of enzymes by dry hopping would have the potential to lower final gravity of the beer (in the presence of yeast, dextrines, etc.). It may take a lot longer for the effect to take place, but it still has the potential to occur.

I'll add that there are experiments in that paper that show sugar production varying with hop variety as well.

"Brown and Morris" said to be confirmed in 1941 is the 1893 article I've been referring to.   Just got the full on Google Books.   One of the March issues I believe. 

[denny]

How much hops did you add?  Has it happened more than once?  How can you track  it to disaster in the hops?

I believe his point is that fermentation was stable for several weeks, until the 0.67 oz of dry hops were added.

My question on this is: The typical advice for drinking hoppy beers, commercial or homebrew, has been to drink them as fresh as possible to avoid "freshness" (aroma, flavor, whatever). How much of that issue is due to aging/oxidizing hop compounds vs. change in the beer related to these enzymes? I imagine that'd be more of an issue for packaged beer.

Yes, but there is no evidence that it was diastase in the hops that did it.  This is a data point.  As such, a single instance only provides material for further study, not a conclusion.  Given that I haven't seen any other reports of such a small amount of dry hops having this effect, I can't take this as even close to conclusive.  It's like saying "I danced in my front yard to keep flying elephants away and I haven't seen any flying elephants, so it must work".

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Denny, shouldn't you also have to prove it only happens at extremely high levels of dry hopping based on your statements?

In my mind, there's not enough information for anyone to make any blanket statements. We don't know how hop variety or growing conditions affects enzyme content. However, let me add a bit more. Here's a study from 1941:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1941.tb06070.x

The conclusion of Brown and Morris that dry-hopping
in cask produces an appreciable quantity of sugar in dextrinous beer, and so
promotes "after fermentation," has been confirmed. In addition, the opinion
has been formed that one or more additional factors, at present unknown, operate
in stimulating "after fermentation" during dry-hopping.
The enzyme maltase has been shown to be present in dry hops.

Experiment 4 seems to indicate the the quantity of hops is not as large of a factor (no variation in maltase production with increasing hopping ratio, from 1g/100 cc). 1 g/100 CC=1.34 oz/5 gallons if my math is correct, which is not an extraordinarily high dry hopping rate. What do we know about enzymes? They work at a range of pH and temperature, and will work until they are denatured (typically by temperature or pH). Therefore, my hypothesis would be that any introduction of enzymes by dry hopping would have the potential to lower final gravity of the beer (in the presence of yeast, dextrines, etc.). It may take a lot longer for the effect to take place, but it still has the potential to occur.

I'll add that there are experiments in that paper that show sugar production varying with hop variety as well.

I'll try to find the citation about the rate.  And since we're talking personal experience. I usually dry hop at rates far higher than Dave did, and I've never seen it happen in hundreds of dry hopped batches.

[dmtaylor]

I'll be dry hopping again for sure next time I have a stuck fermentation.  That's what I've learned.  You all can do what you like but that's what I've learned.

[Robert]

And I have learned that Denny's dance effectively repels flying elephants, which, I believe, proves their existence. 

Oh, and if seeded hops contain more diastase... Fuggles!  Could explain why Denny's never experienced this.

[denny]

And I have learned that Denny's dance effectively repels flying elephants, which, I believe, proves their existence. 

Oh, and if seeded hops contain more diastase... Fuggles!  Could explain why Denny's never experienced this.

HAHA!  Good on ya, Robert.

[dmtaylor]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

[klickitat jim]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

NEIPAs are what caused hops to get enzymes, I'm pretty sure

[Robert]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

Seems you're feeling better now.  Cheers!  So... Primarily?  Dunno.  In part at least?  Why the heck not.   Except that besides attenuation, the other big purpose of dry hopping back in the day was rapid clarification; but then the mechanism there is providing lots of polyphenols to complex with proteins and all settle out, which will not have gone to completion in said FRESH Knee-pah, so maybe, hmm...

[dmtaylor]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

Seems you're feeling better now.  Cheers!  So... Primarily?  Dunno.  In part at least?  Why the heck not.   Except that besides attenuation, the other big purpose of dry hopping back in the day was rapid clarification; but then the mechanism there is providing lots of polyphenols to complex with proteins and all settle out, which will not have gone to completion in said FRESH Knee-pah, so maybe, hmm...

Yeah... it's so VITAL to consume your NEIPA within SECONDS of it getting into the can that you need to go wait in line for 20 minutes in the NE to get the freshest stuff.  Even though it kind of sucks.  But yeah.

Yes, I feel very much better, now, thank you.  I'm trashed, not on beer but on 3 (or maybe more soon?) good old fashioned Wisconsin whiskey old fashioneds with cherry juice, yummo.  I do drink stuff other than beer on occasion.  This was one of many of those occasions.  Cheers all.

[klickitat jim]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

Seems you're feeling better now.  Cheers!  So... Primarily?  Dunno.  In part at least?  Why the heck not.   Except that besides attenuation, the other big purpose of dry hopping back in the day was rapid clarification; but then the mechanism there is providing lots of polyphenols to complex with proteins and all settle out, which will not have gone to completion in said FRESH Knee-pah, so maybe, hmm...

Yeah... it's so VITAL to consume your NEIPA within SECONDS of it getting into the can that you need to go wait in line for 20 minutes in the NE to get the freshest stuff.  Even though it kind of sucks.  But yeah.

Yes, I feel very much better, now, thank you.  I'm trashed, not on beer but on 3 (or maybe more soon?) good old fashioned Wisconsin whiskey old fashioneds with cherry juice, yummo.  I do drink stuff other than beer on occasion.  This was one of many of those occasions.  Cheers all.

3 Old Fashions, and feeling better... no denying the correlation there

[Robert]

^^^^
I think we can confidently posit causation,  not mere correlation.   Finally, on something. 

[dmtaylor]

^^^^
I think we can confidently posit causation,  not mere correlation.   Finally, on something. 

Well, it also feels better not being at work anymore, so....

[Robert]

There can be more than one cause.  Mic drop.

[RC]

New drunken revelation!:  Fresh NEIPAs are hazy PRIMARILY BECAUSE....

Dry hops contain enzymes which convert unconverted complex dextrins into fermentable sugars and it keeps the yeast eating and in suspension otherwise they'd be settling out but since they're not done eating they don't.

Discuss.  Or don't.  I don't care.

Suspended yeast are not the cause of the haze. I've looked at many a hazy under a microscope. There are no more yeast cells in suspension than in any other unfiltered beer, fined or not, homebrewed or professionally brewed or not.

The haze is from using a high proportion of high-protein grains combined with a large charge of dry hops. Has nothing to do with yeast in suspension. Where I live (Sacramento area), the hazies are so hazy that many might consider them gross. They're murky and turbid, even more so than the most turbid hefeweizen. But that's how I like them, and how I brew them.

There is also at least one very acclaimed craft brewery around here, which arguably brought the style to the area, which adds flour to the whirlpool stand to create even more haze. The chunks of flour fall into the glass upon pouring. Yuck.

[BrewBama]

Was your Old Fashioned made with simple syrup or made with gomme syrup?