Author Topic: Dried yeasts and pH  (Read 3286 times)

Offline BrewBama

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Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2018, 12:58:44 PM »
I just took a sample from my finished but not yet carbonated Dunkel. I used two packs of MJ84 to inoculate. I did make a starter, cold crashed, and decanted.  The pH is 4.23.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2018, 02:52:22 AM »
I just took a sample from my finished but not yet carbonated Dunkel. I used two packs of MJ84 to inoculate. I did make a starter, cold crashed, and decanted.  The pH is 4.23.


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So one example of a dry yeast and a decanted starter yielding normal pH.  And for reference,  that is how I've taken all my finished beer pH readings, before carbonation.   If already carbonated,  the sample should be degassed so we have consistent data.
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Offline goose

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2018, 02:25:44 PM »
I just took a sample from my finished but not yet carbonated Dunkel. I used two packs of MJ84 to inoculate. I did make a starter, cold crashed, and decanted.  The pH is 4.23.


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So one example of a dry yeast and a decanted starter yielding normal pH.  And for reference,  that is how I've taken all my finished beer pH readings, before carbonation.   If already carbonated,  the sample should be degassed so we have consistent data.

And, carbonated beer will be a bit more acidic.  Dissolving CO2 in water or beer creates carbonic acid which lowers the pH.  So degassing or measuring before carbonating will give you a more reliable reading .
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2018, 09:07:17 PM »
I use 20ml sample cups.... condiment cups... for all things ph. I found that by the time a 20 ml sample reaches room temp it's not fizzing anymore. The idea is to measure the same every time.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2018, 09:52:56 PM »
So on a dry stout with non-rehydrated yeast (i.e., sprinkled onto the wort), the pH measured right at 4.30, so not so acidic, I should think.  But I do get some tartness that belies the relatively neutral pH reading.  Is it just in my head?  I don’t THINK so, but who knows...
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Offline BrewBama

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Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2018, 10:26:45 PM »
I just checked a TX Brown Ale I have on tap. I used S-04 sprinkled atop the wort. I let it go flat and come up to room temp before checking. It’s pH is 4.34 and I do not detect tartness though I wish it had a bit more hop bitterness.

EDT: I corrected the yeast. I used -04 in this beer vs Notti which makes more sense because I’ve read -04 mutes hops. I believe it.

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 07:25:06 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Robert

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2018, 10:55:44 PM »
Well, now I'm starting to really wonder why I was so consistently getting those low 1st generation pH levels,  if others haven't,  with the same yeast.  May be more complicated than just wet/dry, 1st generation/ repitch.  I'll have to eventually see if I can replicate the results myself.   As far as I know the form of yeast was the only variable,  my procedure otherwise identical.   Hope more data follow.  BTW I took a sample of the repitched Nottingham batch when I put it on gas to carbonate the other day,  batch that finished at 4.2 when 1st generation was 3.8 and is rather tart;  this batch shows no tartness.   That's some good news.
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Offline BrewBama

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Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2018, 07:15:07 PM »
Not sure what to say. I just checked an Amer Amber Ale fermented with 1st gen Nottingham. Again, let it go flat and get to room temp.  The pH is 4.46.

(This is the correct Notti beer)

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 07:21:34 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Robert

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2018, 07:32:10 PM »
Well, I asked the question here because I saw something I couldn't explain.   I had four instances of dry yeast (S-04 and Nottingham) direct pitched resulting in low pH levels like I'd never seen before, but only in the first generation,  each of those pitches taken out a couple more generations behaved normally.  In amongst these, W-34/70 and Windsor did not show this phenomenon.  Never seen it with liquid cultures.  Maybe I never will be able to explain it.  It will be interesting to see if it happens again whenever I next use dry yeast.  Being something of a dry yeast noob even after decades of brewing, it really concerned me.   But it doesn't seem to be a general problem with dried yeast. I'm keeping the S-04 in the fridge as an emergency backup.

(The only one of these I'd previously used was W-34/70 years ago, and I made starters, just to compare it with the liquid versions. That would be another topic.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 07:45:28 PM by Robert »
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2018, 08:33:25 PM »
Which is why I shot a note to one of the mfr. I don’t have a reliable source for liquid yeast so dry yeast has to work for me. I thought my pH would be inline with your findings and my taste buds were the anomaly.


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Offline Northern_Brewer

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 10:32:28 PM »
Here's another take on it - national tastes vary, as do serving methods, and British yeasts make the "correct" amount of acid for cask beer, the problem is not the yeast but US brewers taking it over the top by adding too much carbonic acid in keg.  ;)

If you look at Murphy & Sons, one of the main tech support labs for the Burton breweries, they recommend a final pH of 3.7-4.1 which is several points lower than a US brewer would think was normal. Some of that is down to serving in cask, which means less carbonic acid and a greater need for anti-bacterial acidity, but it points to differences in tastes as well I feel.

S-04 over 68F seems to produce acid regardless though, I'd put that in a special case (and I half wonder if it hasn't got a souped-up lactate metabolism through exposure to milk stouts at some point in its career).

Offline Robert

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2018, 01:02:10 AM »
The batch with the repitched Nottingham finished with a normal pH and indeed has none of the tartness of the dry yeast batch.   If I had to complain about the fermentation character it would be that it's too neutral and clean.  So still don't know what's going on but my results are still consistent.   Maybe I'll come back to dry yeast at some point.  Till then a mystery.  Glad it's working for those who depend on it.
Rob Stein
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2018, 02:04:34 PM »
That’s why I like Nottingham — it’s ability to get out of the way. 


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Offline Robert

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
That’s why I like Nottingham — it’s ability to get out of the way. 


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And exactly why I chose it, this was my first batch trying the Chevallier malt and I wanted nothing obscuring it.  Glad it worked out as it did this time.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Dried yeasts and pH
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2018, 02:59:52 PM »
NB, that is interesting insight into S-04 yeast. I’ve used it a couple of times and found it to be very bready when young, but it became quite tart with increasing age.
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