[Jimthebrewer123]

Hello I have a lager that  just started to ferment.  the OG is 1.060 an my Final gravity is 1.015 so  according to the fast lager method I would want to start ramping up once it reaches 1.037 which would be the 50% or is my math wrong?

[Frankenbrew]

It looks good to me.

[dannyjed]

How do you know what the FG is? Maybe that is an estimated FG. I think you will be fine raising the temperature after a few days of fermentation.


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[Robert]

Yeah, that's right.  Halfway between OG and predicted FG.
 If you're looking at the "Tasty" McDole method, I personally think he gets too fiddly from that point.  Once you're very roughly at the halfway point, you'll have established the cool-fermented flavor profile, and the temperature can rise without such a precise schedule, just to keep the yeast vigorously active.  That's my experience at least, and the way many brewers do it.  There are many variations possible.   Find one that suits you.

EDIT (My own method is just to ferment in the low 50s F until at least 50% ADF, which is more like 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to FG, and then shut off the cooling and let the beer free rise to ambient temperature [mid-60s F.]  Crash at FG, confirmed by no change over 48 hours.  Very simple, doesn't demand precision, basically the standard German method made easy.)

[The Beerery]

EDIT (basically the standard German method made easy.)

I am not posting this to make waves, but more so clear up some things. 
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/cold-fermentation-practices/

I touch on this in this post. 
“A few years ago there were some folks who rediscovered a novel approach to lager beer making, the accelerated fermentation schedule.

Mr. Narziβ details and outlines this process in what we refer to “Die” and Mr. Kunze also touches on in what is referred to as “Kunze“.

Now, I think there is a pivotal piece missing here, that piece is that both gentlemen are speaking of these fermentation schedules in regards to large cylindro-conical vessels, or CCV’s for short.  These are your standard large brewery “conical” fermenters. Depending on the size of these there can be very large amounts of hydrostatic pressure in these tanks, and it is known that static pressure can reduce ester production which could allow for a higher temperature ferment. Another piece is the ability to cap (spund) the fermenters, in order to retain some residual sulfur (another great antioxidant).”


There is more in the post.  But. Yea.  Context. 



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[dmtaylor]

There is much to be learned from dead guys.  Got it.

Personally I just ignore the 1.0 in the front of the gravity, so for 1.060, take the 60, cut that in half, and that's the point where I'd warm it up, at 30 or 1.030.  Easy math, and I think might also result in a better product.

But I could be wrong.  I haven't run enough side-by-side blind tasting experiments yet to know for sure... and neither have very many other people.  By the way... Even Brulosopher findings need to be accepted with grains of doubt.

[narcout]

I don't really understand the point of the fast lager method.

I don't brew many lagers, but when I do, they seem to ferment pretty quickly in the low 50's if I pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well.  Does it really shave off that much time if you raise the temperature at some point?

[Iliff Ave]

I don't really understand the point of the fast lager method.

I don't brew many lagers, but when I do, they seem to ferment pretty quickly in the low 50's if I pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well.  Does it really shave off that much time if you raise the temperature at some point?

This has been my impression as well. I used to go with the "fast lager" method but now it doesn't seem necessary for me. I can get my lagers kegged in about the same time as my ales. Obviously, more cold conditioning time is desired.

[The Beerery]

I ferment my lagers at 45f, 5 days until they are moved to the keg. 2 days in the keg to spund (at 45). so at 7 days I have a lager at FG, fully carbed, better than commercial cold side DO numbers, and the classic continental lagers flavors I desire (i.e. not ale like).  Pretty hard to beat IMO.

[Robert]

All of our methods, then, seem equally "fast."  Do I understand  that others are just thinking what I am, that the specific, "Tasty McDole Fast Lager Method" has a lot of moving parts that serve no apparent purpose?

I used to go with the "fast lager" method but now it doesn't seem necessary for me. I can get my lagers kegged in about the same time as my ales. Obviously, more cold conditioning time is desired.

I also have the same timeline for both.  The time that a lager would be on a "diacetyl rest " is time an ale spends dry hopping in the fermenter.   Then both are racked to cold storage for a time to clarify.   Essentially identical process for ale or lager, just a difference in the temperature.   Incidentally,  I refined my procedure for ales based on that I evolved for lagers.  The lagers were always "fast" enough, but the ales may have slowed down a bit.

[dmtaylor]

I try hard not to count number of days until moving beer around or warming or cooling.  I try to listen to the yeast and do what I think they need me to do to make them happy.  Serving the needs of the yeast is to me more important than my own selfish wishes to speed them up.  What's in it for me, if I listen correctly, is a better end product hopefully.

[Robert]

I try hard not to count number of days until moving beer around or warming or cooling.  I try to listen to the yeast and do what I think they need me to do to make them happy.  Serving the needs of the yeast is to me more important than my own selfish wishes to speed them up.  What's in it for me, if I listen correctly, is a better end product hopefully.

I hear you, I agree, but the way you put that sounds kind of creepy, like microbial mind control... maybe the yeast have come from another world to enslave us all... 

[ynotbrusum]

On most of my fermenters I now have keg gas in posts on the lid of the fermenters, with gray QDC connected to my blow off hosing running into the container of star San for the initial fermentation period.  I then pull off the blow off hose as fermentation slows and attach a spunding valve for the balance of fermentation.  At the end I remove the spunding valve, if it is going to sit for a while to further condition or clarify, sometimes crashing before I rack on a closed loop to a purged keg.  The racking is then done directly to the keg outpost and the keg in post is connected to the gas in post on the top of the fermenter.  It works for me, YMMV.

I appreciate that keg spunding is a preferred approach for minimizing O2 (a keg purged is a keg with some residual O2 in any event), but I just haven’t gone the sauer gut route quite yet.

Cheers.

[dmtaylor]

I try hard not to count number of days until moving beer around or warming or cooling.  I try to listen to the yeast and do what I think they need me to do to make them happy.  Serving the needs of the yeast is to me more important than my own selfish wishes to speed them up.  What's in it for me, if I listen correctly, is a better end product hopefully.

I hear you, I agree, but the way you put that sounds kind of creepy, like microbial mind control... maybe the yeast have come from another world to enslave us all... 

Well, as I always say, they're not plants AND they're not animals, so........ they *could* be aliens from another planet.......... 

[denny]

I don't really understand the point of the fast lager method.

I don't brew many lagers, but when I do, they seem to ferment pretty quickly in the low 50's if I pitch enough yeast and oxygenate well.  Does it really shave off that much time if you raise the temperature at some point?

Yeah, it seems to be faster for me.  Maybe a week or 2.  But maybe your "normal" lager fermentations are faster than mine.

To Bryan's point, I just returned from the Australian Homebrew Conference, where Chris White did a presentation on pressurized fermentation for homebrewers.  It seems to have benefits, although he also pointed out drawbacks with it.  But between the wave of new small CCVs for homebrewers or corny fermentation (which is what I do), it certainly is attainable at the homebrew level.