Author Topic: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all  (Read 1509 times)

Offline RC

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 09:03:54 PM »

RC, while you're doing tests, how about adding an overnight cold stand for comparison?


Will do, Robert. And good point about utilities possibly switching up chemicals...

Offline denny

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 09:29:12 PM »

RC, while you're doing tests, how about adding an overnight cold stand for comparison?


Will do, Robert. And good point about utilities possibly switching up chemicals...

Or even just spiking the chlorine level during warmer months.
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Offline Hooper

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 10:30:18 PM »
First time in my 6 years brewing I forgot to add the campden tablets. Using carbon filtered Denver water cut with distilled. My Saison smells like a swimming pool and I will be dumping the keg. I realized I forgot after mash in and used campden in the sparge water but it was obviously too late...Another lesson learned the hard way.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 12:53:07 AM »
No way to save it post ferment?  I mean you’re already at zero. Try to save it somehow.


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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2018, 01:44:35 AM »
Chlorophenol cannot be reversed or "saved".  If that's what it is, it's no good IMO.
Dave

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Offline Hooper

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 11:42:43 AM »
I tasted it right away from the hydrometer jar. So...I stuck my head into the mostly empty bucket I'd just kegged from. Wow...That up the nose no doubt chlorine smell. Hard to believe it could get that bad when I carbon filtered...
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Offline RC

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2018, 09:19:14 PM »
I'll test chlorine levels in straight-from-the-tap water...

Results are in, view link below. I put on my actual scientist hat for this one because 1) I was extremely curious about this issue, and 2) I am surprised by the results.

In case you don't want to read the write up, the punchline is that yes, heating to strike temp does remove all the chlorine. An overnight stand does not.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iFBPqylPhfZVf4LzhtpuV8eNPHnWn1ipM5_Wp3s6PuI/edit?usp=sharing

Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2018, 10:16:36 PM »
Cool!  Nice work.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 10:47:02 PM »
I had a friend at the time who worked for the municipal water department.  He said this is possible because in spring and fall they have to chlorinate more due to weather effects in the lake (I live on the big Lake Michigan which is our water source).  The beer I had with chlorophenol was brewed in like March or October.  Bingo.

"Weather effects" = too much rain and they dumped raw sewage into the lake.  Much of the summer, the beaches are closed because of too much ecoli.  Good times.

I rarely use campden and have not had a problem with Chicago water.  I do filter it and maybe the heating to strike temp drives off whatever is left.

Campden is cheap insurance though.  Probably should use it more often.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2018, 11:34:19 PM »
Results are in, view link below. I put on my actual scientist hat for this one because 1) I was extremely curious about this issue, and 2) I am surprised by the results.

In case you don't want to read the write up, the punchline is that yes, heating to strike temp does remove all the chlorine. An overnight stand does not.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iFBPqylPhfZVf4LzhtpuV8eNPHnWn1ipM5_Wp3s6PuI/edit?usp=sharing

Interesting.  Thank you for sharing.  Well done.
Dave

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2018, 03:08:48 AM »
Hard to believe it could get that bad when I carbon filtered...

What was the flow rate through that carbon filter? If it was greater than 1 gal/min, the chlorine passed right through.

To give you an idea of how slow the flow needs to be, putting a plug with a 1/16" hole in the water line on the carbon filter will reduce the flow rate to about 1 gal/min under typical water pressure.

If the water has any chloramines, then the carbon filter is useless unless the flow rate is under 1/10 gal/min.
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Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 04:17:07 PM »
What was the flow rate through that carbon filter? If it was greater than 1 gal/min, the chlorine passed right through.

To give you an idea of how slow the flow needs to be, putting a plug with a 1/16" hole in the water line on the carbon filter will reduce the flow rate to about 1 gal/min under typical water pressure.

If the water has any chloramines, then the carbon filter is useless unless the flow rate is under 1/10 gal/min.

How does the size of the filter, and type of media affect this flow rate?
I just installed a 12"x52" Vortech tank with 2.0 cu-ft of catalytic carbon. They say 5gpm would result in excellent reduction of chloramine. The faucet doesn't flow that fast though.
What flow rate should I run this at for brewing water?
Is the 0.1gpm recommendation for typical 10" or 20" block filters?

http://www.purewaterproducts.com/products/bw703
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2019, 06:03:27 PM »

How does the size of the filter, and type of media affect this flow rate?


The size of the filter affects flow rate as presented in the following equation: The volume of MEDIA (cubic feet) in the filter unit divided by the flow rate (cubic feet per minute), is known as the Empty Bed Contact Time (minutes). To effectively remove chlorine (aka: hypochlorite), the contact time needs to be at least 2/3 minute. To effectively remove any of the chloramine compounds, the contact time needs to be at least 6 minutes. For the typical 10-inch carbon filter unit, that equates to needing the 1 and 0.1 gpm flow rates that I mentioned above. For the big carbon tank that you mention, that flow rate can be assessed by reconfiguring the formula above. Its obviously a much higher flow rate.

Loose or granular activated carbon (GAC) is less dense than the more modern carbon blocks that are now available to consumers for the 10- and 20-inch filter canisters. Therefore, carbon blocks are now preferred over GAC filters.
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Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2019, 06:56:38 PM »
The size of the filter affects flow rate as presented in the following equation: The volume of MEDIA (cubic feet) in the filter unit divided by the flow rate (cubic feet per minute), is known as the Empty Bed Contact Time (minutes). To effectively remove chlorine (aka: hypochlorite), the contact time needs to be at least 2/3 minute. To effectively remove any of the chloramine compounds, the contact time needs to be at least 6 minutes. For the typical 10-inch carbon filter unit, that equates to needing the 1 and 0.1 gpm flow rates that I mentioned above. For the big carbon tank that you mention, that flow rate can be assessed by reconfiguring the formula above. Its obviously a much higher flow rate.

Loose or granular activated carbon (GAC) is less dense than the more modern carbon blocks that are now available to consumers for the 10- and 20-inch filter canisters. Therefore, carbon blocks are now preferred over GAC filters.

Media volume/flow rate=contact time
2.0 / flow rate = 6 minutes
flow rate = 12 minutes minimum

My tank head says it has a restrictor installed for 10gpm max flow rate. If I use a 5gpm laminar restrictor at the kettle, would it be safe to assume enough/all chloramine is effectively reduced below the chlorophenol danger zone?
the Dyslexic Alchemist
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2019, 07:07:01 PM »
Nope.

2 cu ft is about 15 gallons.

15gal / 6 min is 2.5 gpm  If the flow is restricted to 2.5 gpm, then you should remove all chloramines.  For all others on this post, recognize that 2 cubic feet of activated carbon is A LOT.
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