Author Topic: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all  (Read 1515 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2019, 04:10:36 AM »
Martin,

Thanks for the explanation here, and the formula for contact time.  But I realize there may be something missing.   What about the life of the carbon block filter?  How does time in service affect its capacity to remove  chlorine/ chloramine?  I use a 10" Pentek EP-10 cartridge which is installed in line on the cold side of my kitchen supply, so running all my cooking and beverage water as well as water for brewing purposes (including immersion chiller,  maybe my biggest single requirement!)  I generally replace it every 3 months as a matter of course.   Will my required contact time change over time?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2019, 04:05:51 PM »
Rob, I hoping that you're monitoring the residual total chlorine in your filtered water in order to help you assess when the carbon cartridge is exhausted. That's the way we do it for our industrial clients. It's so important that there are automated monitoring equipment that constantly test that the filtered water chlorine compound concentrations are below limit. Of course that's unreasonable for a homeowner, but you can perform occassional tests with a simple swimming pool test kit to confirm if and when there is chlorine breakthrough.

I use those EP-10 carbon filters in my RO system also and they are good. They are carbon block style and they do last. The treatment mechanism between activated carbon and chlorine compounds does 'consume' the carbon material. Eventually, the carbon will be used up and it must be replaced. The Pentek site does state that this filter will remove the FREE chlorine in up to 6000 gallons of water at 1 gpm. Be aware that FREE means chlorine or hypochlorite. It specifically excludes the BOUND chlorine species such as chloramines. If your water supply has chloramines, then the 1 gpm criteria goes out the door. Then to get the desired chloramine removal, the flow rate has to be reduced to under 0.1 gpm. But the amount of water that the filter can treat should still remain consistent (6000 gal).

Understand that filter and system providers are going to provide conservative estimates of capacity and performance in this case since it means that they are going to sell more filter replacements. If you're interested in maximizing your dollars, you'll be testing and monitoring the performance of your system to assess when you really need to perform those replacements.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2019, 04:09:56 PM »
Rob, I hoping that you're monitoring the residual total chlorine in your filtered water in order to help you assess when the carbon cartridge is exhausted. That's the way we do it for our industrial clients. It's so important that there are automated monitoring equipment that constantly test that the filtered water chlorine compound concentrations are below limit. Of course that's unreasonable for a homeowner, but you can perform occassional tests with a simple swimming pool test kit to confirm if and when there is chlorine breakthrough.

I use those EP-10 carbon filters in my RO system also and they are good. They are carbon block style and they do last. The treatment mechanism between activated carbon and chlorine compounds does 'consume' the carbon material. Eventually, the carbon will be used up and it must be replaced. The Pentek site does state that this filter will remove the FREE chlorine in up to 6000 gallons of water at 1 gpm. Be aware that FREE means chlorine or hypochlorite. It specifically excludes the BOUND chlorine species such as chloramines. If your water supply has chloramines, then the 1 gpm criteria goes out the door. Then to get the desired chloramine removal, the flow rate has to be reduced to under 0.1 gpm. But the amount of water that the filter can treat should still remain consistent (6000 gal).

Understand that filter and system providers are going to provide conservative estimates of capacity and performance in this case since it means that they are going to sell more filter replacements. If you're interested in maximizing your dollars, you'll be testing and monitoring the performance of your system to assess when you really need to perform those replacements.
Thanks, I'll pick up a chlorine test kit and see if I can save money.  I've just been replacing them at a very conservative interval.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2019, 09:47:11 PM »
The other thing that a Total Chlorine test kit can tell you, is if your flow rate is too high and full removal is not achieved (aka: chlorine breakthrough). 

Remember that a garden hose can easily deliver about 5 gpm. A sink faucet could also come close to that. In either case, the flowrate far exceeds the 1 gpm rate that a standard 10 inch filter can treat for chlorine compounds. Putting a restrictor with a 1/16-inch diameter hole on the line will bring the flowrate down around the 1 gpm rate.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2019, 12:55:46 AM »
The other thing that a Total Chlorine test kit can tell you, is if your flow rate is too high and full removal is not achieved (aka: chlorine breakthrough). 

Remember that a garden hose can easily deliver about 5 gpm. A sink faucet could also come close to that. In either case, the flowrate far exceeds the 1 gpm rate that a standard 10 inch filter can treat for chlorine compounds. Putting a restrictor with a 1/16-inch diameter hole on the line will bring the flowrate down around the 1 gpm rate.
I ordered a total/free chlorine test kit from Hach.  Hope that's a good product.

Since you mentioned flow rate here on the forum some time ago, I've also been erring on the side of caution and throttling the faucet way back.  I'm running well below 1 gpm, probably more like a quart a minute.   It will be interesting to dial this in with actual measurement.   That said, I've never had a problem with chlorophenol anyway, even with less careful filtration.   
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2019, 12:45:43 PM »
Nope.

2 cu ft is about 15 gallons.

15gal / 6 min is 2.5 gpm  If the flow is restricted to 2.5 gpm, then you should remove all chloramines.  For all others on this post, recognize that 2 cubic feet of activated carbon is A LOT.

hmm.. OK
Does this rate apply only to regular activated carbon ?
I'm using Calgon Centaur Catalytic Carbon, it's claimed to have improved efficiency over regular GAC.
https://www.calgoncarbon.com/products/centaur/
the Dyslexic Alchemist
Louisville, KY

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2019, 06:41:59 PM »
The enhanced carbon products do help with chloramine removal, but the throughput isn’t enhanced that much.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2019, 06:43:51 PM »
The enhanced carbon products do help with chloramine removal, but the throughput isn’t enhanced that much.

I understand. Thank you, sir
the Dyslexic Alchemist
Louisville, KY

Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2019, 01:52:14 AM »
The other thing that a Total Chlorine test kit can tell you, is if your flow rate is too high and full removal is not achieved (aka: chlorine breakthrough). 

Remember that a garden hose can easily deliver about 5 gpm. A sink faucet could also come close to that. In either case, the flowrate far exceeds the 1 gpm rate that a standard 10 inch filter can treat for chlorine compounds. Putting a restrictor with a 1/16-inch diameter hole on the line will bring the flowrate down around the 1 gpm rate.
I ordered a total/free chlorine test kit from Hach.  Hope that's a good product.

Since you mentioned flow rate here on the forum some time ago, I've also been erring on the side of caution and throttling the faucet way back.  I'm running well below 1 gpm, probably more like a quart a minute.   It will be interesting to dial this in with actual measurement.   That said, I've never had a problem with chlorophenol anyway, even with less careful filtration.
Ok, thought of another question or two.   I should have my test kit in time to either replace my filter or not before this weekend's brew.   I'm not sure what the resolution of the test is.  But:

While I realize our goal for total chlorine in brewing water is zero, is there an acceptable minimal level, say a hair above zero, that can be relied upon to gas off as the liquor is being heated?  Further, does it depend upon whether chlorine or chloramine is used?  AFAIK my city only uses chlorine (according to their public information) but is there a way to confirm  this based on the ratio of free to total chlorine?  (Apologies if I could have just looked this up in Palmer and Kaminski.  I'm lazy and anyway the answers may be of interest to others. )
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2019, 03:14:57 AM »
Do read the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website and you'll see the discussion of the incredibly low threshold for chlorophenol creation and perception. Virtually 100% removal is needed prior to brewing usage.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

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Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2019, 03:31:31 AM »


Do read the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website and you'll see the discussion of the incredibly low threshold for chlorophenol creation and perception. Virtually 100% removal is needed prior to brewing usage.

Thanks.  What I've always assumed.   You know, whenever anybody else has a water question my first advice always is, "read the Water Knowledge page..."   Guess I'll keep following my own advice. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2019, 07:37:23 PM »
Rob, I hoping that you're monitoring the residual total chlorine in your filtered water in order to help you assess when the carbon cartridge is exhausted. That's the way we do it for our industrial clients. It's so important that there are automated monitoring equipment that constantly test that the filtered water chlorine compound concentrations are below limit. Of course that's unreasonable for a homeowner, but you can perform occassional tests with a simple swimming pool test kit to confirm if and when there is chlorine breakthrough.

I use those EP-10 carbon filters in my RO system also and they are good. They are carbon block style and they do last. The treatment mechanism between activated carbon and chlorine compounds does 'consume' the carbon material. Eventually, the carbon will be used up and it must be replaced. The Pentek site does state that this filter will remove the FREE chlorine in up to 6000 gallons of water at 1 gpm. Be aware that FREE means chlorine or hypochlorite. It specifically excludes the BOUND chlorine species such as chloramines. If your water supply has chloramines, then the 1 gpm criteria goes out the door. Then to get the desired chloramine removal, the flow rate has to be reduced to under 0.1 gpm. But the amount of water that the filter can treat should still remain consistent (6000 gal).

Understand that filter and system providers are going to provide conservative estimates of capacity and performance in this case since it means that they are going to sell more filter replacements. If you're interested in maximizing your dollars, you'll be testing and monitoring the performance of your system to assess when you really need to perform those replacements.
Thanks, I'll pick up a chlorine test kit and see if I can save money.  I've just been replacing them at a very conservative interval.
Just got my chlorine test kit.  I tested samples at the flow rate I actually use for running my brewing water,  about 0.5 gal/min.   Shows 0 ppm for both free and total chlorine.  My routine would have been to replace this filter at the beginning of March, same time as my furnace/air filter (just a good mnemonic.)  I guess I don't need to, just saved ~$14.  Will check again before each brew day, until I get an idea of what my filter life is and can test less often.  The cost of reagent will be more than made up for by just eliminating a few filter changes!  In fact, I only need to test total chlorine, right?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2019, 09:31:17 PM »
Just got my chlorine test kit.  I tested samples at the flow rate I actually use for running my brewing water,  about 0.5 gal/min.   Shows 0 ppm for both free and total chlorine.  My routine would have been to replace this filter at the beginning of March, same time as my furnace/air filter (just a good mnemonic.)  I guess I don't need to, just saved ~$14.  Will check again before each brew day, until I get an idea of what my filter life is and can test less often.  The cost of reagent will be more than made up for by just eliminating a few filter changes!  In fact, I only need to test total chlorine, right?
From what I understand, total chlorine is all we really need to worry about. Anything other than 0 is not good.
Link for the test kit you're using? I need to get one too, so I know when I need to backwash my carbon tank.
the Dyslexic Alchemist
Louisville, KY

Offline Robert

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2019, 09:42:45 PM »
I got this one

Hach 223101 Chlorine (Free &... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N3ZCNEU?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

They probably have one for total only too, but the only difference will be whether or not it comes with both reagents (came with 50 sachets of each.)   I'll just test only for total chlorine and only repurchase that reagent.  It's well designed and easy to get a good read of the colorimeter. 
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline KYT

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Re: Campden tablets and mineral profile and is it necessary at all
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 12:27:11 PM »
Ah awesome thanks.
Is that kit able to read 0? The description is rather useless  ;D
the Dyslexic Alchemist
Louisville, KY