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Author Topic: Kesselmaishe  (Read 2229 times)

Offline mdyer909

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Kesselmaishe
« on: November 23, 2018, 06:40:53 am »
I read about this method of decoction mashing in Mike Karnowski’s “Homebrew, Beyond the Basics”.  Anyone ever done it?  I don’t get many results googling the term.  I plan to brew a bock style lager tomorrow and thought I’d give it a try.  My last attempt at decoction mashing was chaotic and nerve wracking, but the beer—also a bock—was quite good. My grainbill will be mostly Pilsner malt because I’ve got a 50lb bag of some locally grown stuff. 

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 08:40:52 am »
I read about this method of decoction mashing in Mike Karnowski’s “Homebrew, Beyond the Basics”.  Anyone ever done it?  I don’t get many results googling the term.  I plan to brew a bock style lager tomorrow and thought I’d give it a try.  My last attempt at decoction mashing was chaotic and nerve wracking, but the beer—also a bock—was quite good. My grainbill will be mostly Pilsner malt because I’ve got a 50lb bag of some locally grown stuff.
I am going to give it a try. I think on a Dunkel, as those are often still decocted today.

For those that don't know, you mash in, then for the decoctions the liquid is drawn off and all the grains are left in the kettle. Water is added to the grains, and that is then boiled. Once the boiling is done, the liquid part that contains the enzymes is added back. Proceed with rest of the mash steps.

It looks like something I want to do because:

1. Decocting all of the grains gives more flavor.
2. If one can pump gently, splashing will be minimized so that not as much oxodation.
3. It may be easier, as no manual transfer back and forth

Stirring more grain may be the negative.

We will see. I have several lagers planned before the Dinkel.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 03:28:50 pm »
Any special pH considerations with that style of mashing?  Also, how do you calculate the water volume to add to the grain on the predecoction step?  Lastly, are you concerned with temperature of the grain or first wort when that wort is added backup the decocted full mash?

Sounds interesting.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 03:46:11 pm »
Kunze, 3.2.4.3.1, has this:

"Kettle mash process
A special variation of the single mash process is the kettle mash process.   In this mashing in is at 35°C and about 20% of the mash is then removed to constitute an (unboiled) lauter mash fraction.  The remainder of the mash is, with the observation of rests, heated to boiling and boiled for 30-40 min.  It is then cooled to 65°C and with the help of the added lauter mash maltose is formed. The mash is then raised to saccharification temperature and after saccharification the mashing off occurs.   More extract is obtained using this method; however,  the additional energy costs which are necessary for this are, in most countries,  higher than the additional extract yield."

"Single mash" in the first sentence refers to a single-decoction mash.  That's all he has to say.
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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 04:06:29 pm »
Kunze, 3.2.4.3.1, has this:

"Kettle mash process
A special variation of the single mash process is the kettle mash process.   In this mashing in is at 35°C and about 20% of the mash is then removed to constitute an (unboiled) lauter mash fraction.  The remainder of the mash is, with the observation of rests, heated to boiling and boiled for 30-40 min.  It is then cooled to 65°C and with the help of the added lauter mash maltose is formed. The mash is then raised to saccharification temperature and after saccharification the mashing off occurs.   More extract is obtained using this method; however,  the additional energy costs which are necessary for this are, in most countries,  higher than the additional extract yield."

"Single mash" in the first sentence refers to a single-decoction mash.  That's all he has to say.


That’s all he will say since he hated decoction. 

Narziß goes into much more detail.


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Offline mdyer909

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 04:16:57 pm »
In a nutshell Karnowski says to mash as usual.  Rest at 146-155F for 30 minutes, drain off the liquid into a bucket, add about 1 gal. of sparge water into the grain and boil away for 10-30 minutes.  Mix the drained wort and the grain back together and add cold water to hit 160-167F, hold for 20 minutes then sparge as usual.

He does caution about keeping the PH below 6.  I personally don’t measure PH for my beer (I do for the vegetable garden though).  I use my well water which I’ve never tested, but it tastes wonderful. 

Offline kramerog

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 05:55:17 pm »
I'm skeptical of this technique since the reason why decoction has a favorable flavor impact is that sugars and proteins are being heated in a concentrated solution.  Draining off wort and then adding sparge water results in a much more dilute "decoction."

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 07:30:41 pm »
I'm skeptical of this technique since the reason why decoction has a favorable flavor impact is that sugars and proteins are being heated in a concentrated solution.  Draining off wort and then adding sparge water results in a much more dilute "decoction."
I don't plan on draining completely dry, the addition of water would help the stirring when boiling. The pH will also be checked.

Something new to try, the fun is in the challenge. I will report back when I do it. It will make beer, I think, and maybe I will get a nice Dunkel.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline mdyer909

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 04:04:38 pm »
Well, I did the kettle mash today.  12 lbs of malt.  10 Pilsen and 2 Belgian aromatic.  I held the mash at 148F for 30 minutes, then drained off most of the liquid and added a gallon of cold water to the grain and heated that to boiling.  Took forever.  I then boiled the mixture for 25 minutes.  Very much like making a roux for gumbo, it turned chestnut brown.  Mixed the liquid wort back into the cooked grains and held the temperature at 167F for about 20 minutes.  Batch sparged with 4 gallons of 168F water and boiled for 90 minutes.  Wort was deep gold and came in at 10.70.  I’ll lager it for a while and look to drinking it in February. 

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 04:51:20 am »
For the initial strike water- what volume did you use? And on the drain off, how much did you remove, approximately?
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Offline wobdee

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 05:12:08 pm »
Ive done this many times in the past but it was more of a full volume no sparge. I'd mash in at beta temp, rest for 30 min, drain most of the liquid into a cooler to keep the temp steady,  boil the mash 15-30 min, add liquid back to reach alpha for 30 min then either direct heat to mashout or sometimes I would boil the mash again to get there.

This is a very simple and quick decoction method and makes pretty darn good beer. I gave up on it after I found a great deal on a Braumeister and got sucked into LOB. Sometimes I get tempted to give it a go again with some LOB tricks but I'm pretty happy with my current system.

Offline mdyer909

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Re: Kesselmaishe
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 04:29:05 pm »
For the initial strike water- what volume did you use? And on the drain off, how much did you remove, approximately?

3.5 gallons of strike water, probably drained off 2.5 gallons of wort.