Author Topic: Question about nutrients in starter  (Read 1658 times)

Offline Robert

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2018, 02:14:28 AM »
Kunze, 3.2.1.7, discusses what you reference, Martin, that the real problem is getting the zinc into the wort, as 80% is lost in mashing,* as well as some remedies.  As for Servomyces,  it is yeast, but grown on an exceptionally zinc-rich medium, so that tiny amounts provide plenty of bio-accumulated zinc, avoiding the problem of off flavors from the amount of normal yeast slurry you'd have to boil to provide the same amount of zinc.  (I use it, as I mentioned above,  when I for whatever reason only want to supplement zinc, as when using carbon filtered tap water.   When I use RO,  and in starters, I'm more inclined to use Wyeast nutrient because I figure other trace elements may be deficient.  I should probably stop making this distinction and save money.)

*Briggs, et al., Brewing Science and Practice p. 164, puts the amount of zinc from malt that makes it into wort at just 5%, and notes that much of this is unavailable to yeast because of chelation etc.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 02:24:35 AM by Robert »
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2018, 11:14:48 AM »


No law has ever been circumvented like the so called  Reinheitsgebot!  Stories abound about brewers "accidentally losing"  galvanized chain in the bottom of the kettle and "forgetting" to retrieve it.... 

So my galvanized boil kettle takes care of the problem? Check!

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2018, 12:47:26 PM »
I just want to say you don’t know how happy it makes me to see professional brewing texts cited over homebrewing texts.  Bless your hearts. 


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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Offline Visor

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »
   At risk of veering slightly off course, I've always added nutrients to the kettle near the end of the boil. Reading the usage instructions of Fermaid K and other nutrients yesterday I discovered that they all recommend making two additions, both to the FV. Have I been wasting my time and nutrient by adding it to the boil?
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Offline Robert

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2018, 06:31:01 PM »
Instructions for both Servomyces and Wyeast nutrient are to add late in the boil.  (Wyeast also provides specific recommendations for use in starter wort, haven't researched this for Servomyces.)  Not familiar with Fermaid,  but "when all else fails, read the directions," right?

EDIT just read up on Fermaid O & K, they seem to be rather different from the other nutrients, supplying nitrogen compounds but no zinc or other trace minerals,  and intended to serve a specific and different purpose, supporting fermentation already in progress rather than yeast growth and metabolism at the outset.   So it makes sense they're dosed differently.  Nitrogen supplements should be unnecessary in any beer wort, unlike perhaps mead, cider, etc.  Zinc and such is what beer yeast needs.

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« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 06:43:58 PM by Robert »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2018, 06:37:40 PM »

Yeast bio-accumulate zinc in their cells, therefore another zinc source is to add yeast slurry from previous batches to the boil kettle. If I'm not mistaken, that is what the Servomyces product is. I can't see spending money on that product when I've got it on hand. One problem with this approach is the potential for the boiled yeast to contribute autolysis flavors to the beer, such as rubbery or meaty flavor. There are a couple of my local breweries that clearly have this problem. Do be careful how much slurry you use and be cognizant of any autolysis flavors that might be present in the beer.

I add a heaping tablespoon of packed yeast sediment per 10 gallon batch to the boil for bigger beers.  So far I haven't notified any autolysis flavors or other ill effects.  I can't say that I have noticed improvements but I consider it a "best practice" so I do it anyway.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Offline denny

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Offline North63

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2018, 03:40:38 PM »
Denny,
Since adding nutrients (that include zinc) to your brewing what have you noticed?

Offline denny

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2018, 03:59:06 PM »
Denny,
Since adding nutrients (that include zinc) to your brewing what have you noticed?

Chris, I can't swear that they've made a difference.  OTOH,  I can't swear that they haven't. Nutrient is inexpensive and can't hurt.
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Offline North63

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 05:29:59 PM »
Denny,
Thanks for the reply.
Perhaps some testing / comparison is needed here.
I have some nutrient arriving today, I think I'll take a recently brewed recipe and re-brew it using appropriate amount of nutrient in starter and wort and do a comparison.
Gotta have a good winter wkend project :)
Chris

Offline denny

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 05:32:02 PM »
Denny,
Thanks for the reply.
Perhaps some testing / comparison is needed here.
I have some nutrient arriving today, I think I'll take a recently brewed recipe and re-brew it using appropriate amount of nutrient in starter and wort and do a comparison.
Gotta have a good winter wkend project :)
Chris

Sounds good, although you may not fond any difference.  Me feeling is that if everything about the beer is done well, it may not appear to help.  It's when things go wrong that it's helpful.
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Offline goose

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Re: Question about nutrients in starter
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2018, 02:42:01 PM »
I saw this presentation, and started using zinc.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%2520nutrition.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi77tT5t4TfAhUCQKwKHQaEDlQQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1Nl4vWTLbfyyELZXHEBMbI&cshid=1543867129081

Finally had time to read this.   I have always used Wyeast Yeast Nutrient in my beers and this confirms that what I am doing is a good thing since the nutrient has zinc in it.  Always have short lag times evne if I unde pitch due to older, but still in date yeast.  As I said before, although I brew a lot, I don't brew enough to re-pitch.

Thanks for sharing, Jeff, and thanks Rob for citing some good reference sources.
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