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Author Topic: Belgian dark strong  (Read 9130 times)

The Beerery

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2018, 05:50:53 am »
Robert. You are not factoring in gelatinization temps for your first test. 


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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2018, 06:41:11 am »

Although I do not quite understand everything Big Monk was saying regarding the profile he was saying keep it simple "balanced".


Basically I just always advocate simplicity with water profiles. pH management? I've routinely gone into the weeds on that in reference to pH prediction, etc. For Water profiles however, simplicity is king.

1.) Disregard any HCO3 values in the profiles. You don't want to be trying to mimic the alkalinity of someone's water. Alkalinity is something that for most cases you are trying to neutralize, or occasionally add, i.e. in dark beers (although I have never had a situation that drove me to add alkalinity to my water);

2.) Decide on a ppm value for Calcium. I usually target 40-50 ppm but it's dealer's choice really. There were some interesting threads here by Robert about calcium levels and downstream process stuff in the Spring and Summer but to me I have never felt the need to exceed 50 (or for that matter 40) ppm;

3.) Now decide how you'll get your 40-50 ppm (or whatever you choose) of Calcium. Use a mix Calcium Chloride and Gypsum. These will come with some Chloride and Sulfate;

4.) Now choose whether you desire more Sulfate or Chloride and add additional salts suitable to the task, i.e. More Sulfate? Add some Magnesium Sulfate. More Chloride? Add Sodium Chloride or Magnesium Chloride. For the beers I brew, I rarely additional salts other than Sodium Chloride.

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 06:53:59 am »
I agree, simple is best.
I tend to stay in the higher range of pH when mashing with darker beers,  5.4-5.5
Any thoughts on mash pH?


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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 07:00:21 am »
I agree, simple is best.
I tend to stay in the higher range of pH when mashing with darker beers,  5.4-5.5
Any thoughts on mash pH?


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These types of beers don't really qualify as "dark" beers in the classic sense as they have no roast (or shouldn't IMO) but with that said, I mash all my beers at 5.4.

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2018, 07:07:59 am »
Thanks BM.

Well now I have to ask.
What recipe would you use for this style?
Maybe I shall try it next time.

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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2018, 07:37:09 am »
Thanks BM.

Well now I have to ask.
What recipe would you use for this style?
Maybe I shall try it next time.

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Well, since you've asked ( ;)):

It depends on what you want. I won't give my exact recipe, not because i'm secretive, but since I use a certain process to make it ( ;)),  it may not apply to everyone. I will give some general ideas and a recipe though.

1.) I like to blend base malts. I typically will blend Weyermann Pils and Pale malts, or Weyermann Pils and Vienna malts as my combined base;

2.) I like a small stable of specialty malts: Weyermann CaraHell, CaraBelge, CaraMunich II, CaraBohemian, Carafa I, along with Dingemans Special B;

3.) I generally don't use dark syrups. I favor Florida Crystals brand Raw Cane Sugar, Raw Cane Syrup, and Turbinado. On the occasions I do need some extra color that 1% or so of Carafa I with Turbinado won't provide, I favor CSI D90. If that still isn't enough, i'll go up to D180. Or, I forgo syrups altogether and use Weyermann Sinamar, which is what Rochefort does when using "Pure Malt".

I realize Dark syrups are nearly ubiquitous in homebrew recipes. Alot of that has to do with homebrewers temp controlling these yeasts throughout the entire fermentation and having to replicate flavors typically yeast derived through ingredients. I certainly don't begrudge anyone, as I have had some damn fine beers made with syrups. I choose not to because the Chimay, Westmalle, and Rochefort beers I love don't have that flavor come from ingredients.

I think Westvleteren's beers and people trying to replicate them really drives the "3 lbs of Jet Black Syrup" in a BDSA thing. I've had Westvleteren's dark beers and while they are delicious, it's nothing I can't get damn close to with a bottle of St. Bernardus ABT 12 for much, much cheaper. Plus, that style of the Trappist dark ale is not my hallmark. The Big Three: Chimay, Rochefort, and Westmalle are my flavor landmarks.

Sorry for the rant!

So a recipe:

Pilsner - 66%
Vienna - 13%
CaraBelge (or another 18L Euro caramalt) - 5%
Special B - 4%
Turbinado (pre-boil) - 4%
D90  (End-of-boil) - 8%



Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2018, 08:12:39 am »
Interesting.
You use way more malts than I thought you would.
I would have only guessed Pilsner and special B with syrup.

I'll have to say my favorite commercial version by far is the Straffe Hendrik Quad.

I normally use this recipe.

14 lbs Pale malt
.5 lbs ea
Biscuit
Aromatic
Special B
Munich
Carapils
1 lbs D 180.

My LHBS didn't have Special B or Biscuit so I went with a Breiss special roast that I think will add some character.
The rest of the malt I have has to be used up before I can by more.

Its definately going to be diffrent.
Beersmith has the color at 35 SRM.
Its gonna be dark for sure.
Maybe a Belgian Imperial Stout.





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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2018, 08:21:03 am »
Interesting.
You use way more malts than I thought you would.
I would have only guessed Pilsner and special B with syrup.

Well you really have to think of the Pilsner and Vienna together as a single blended base malt. Sometimes in a paler beer like a Tripel, it will be Pilsner and Pale Ale.

I pretty much use the following all the time:

Pilsner, Pale Ale and Vienna in various Blends.

CaraHell is always in my Single and Tripel.

CaraBelge is always in my Dubbel but not always in my DSA.

Special B is always in my Dubbel and DSA.

Dubbel typically doesnt get Dark syrup, DSA sometimes does. I'll forego it altogether if I have Sinamar on hand.


Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2018, 09:00:32 am »
You all can argue about the mash schedule and recipe. For my money I don't like Ardennes in dark beers. I prefer the chimay yeast. Or rochefort.

Ardennes is one of my favorites. Just not in dark beers.


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I'm with ya on yeast choice, Joe
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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2018, 10:21:34 am »
You all can argue about the mash schedule and recipe. For my money I don't like Ardennes in dark beers. I prefer the chimay yeast. Or rochefort.

Ardennes is one of my favorites. Just not in dark beers.


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I'm with ya on yeast choice, Joe

I think if i really had to choose between 3787, 1214, and 1762, i'd go with 3787 as an all around Trappist workhorse.

Plus, since i've had good luck brewing DSA with it and Westmalle doesn't have one, I usually call it my Westmalle Dark Strong Ale clone.  ;)

Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2018, 10:36:02 am »
You all can argue about the mash schedule and recipe. For my money I don't like Ardennes in dark beers. I prefer the chimay yeast. Or rochefort.

Ardennes is one of my favorites. Just not in dark beers.


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I'm with ya on yeast choice, Joe

I think if i really had to choose between 3787, 1214, and 1762, i'd go with 3787 as an all around Trappist workhorse.

Plus, since i've had good luck brewing DSA with it and Westmalle doesn't have one, I usually call it my Westmalle Dark Strong Ale clone.  ;)

I agree with ya...if I had to use only ine it would be 3787.  My Batch 400 Quad turned out great with it.  I use 1762 usually for dark stuff.  And I avoid 1214 because I don't care for it's ester profile.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline narcout

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2018, 10:38:33 am »
I favor Florida Crystals brand Raw Cane Sugar, Raw Cane Syrup, and Turbinado.

Funny, that's the brand I use as well (typically the raw cane sugar with that nice golden hue).

I would have only guessed Pilsner and special B with syrup.

You can actually brew a pretty nice BDS with just Pils malt and syrup.  It's a nice jumping off point to figure out what else you might want to add for subsequent iterations.

I think if i really had to choose between 3787, 1214, and 1762, i'd go with 3787 as an all around Trappist workhorse.

I'm with you on that one.  3522 was my favorite for a while, but now I use 3787 in almost all of my Belgian-style beers.  I've had some good luck this year with 1214 as well, but sometimes I get more banana out of it than I want.  I haven't figured out how to control that yet, other than keeping the temperature on the low side.
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Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2018, 10:40:05 am »
You all can argue about the mash schedule and recipe. For my money I don't like Ardennes in dark beers. I prefer the chimay yeast. Or rochefort.

Ardennes is one of my favorites. Just not in dark beers.


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I'm with ya on yeast choice, Joe

I think if i really had to choose between 3787, 1214, and 1762, i'd go with 3787 as an all around Trappist workhorse.

Plus, since i've had good luck brewing DSA with it and Westmalle doesn't have one, I usually call it my Westmalle Dark Strong Ale clone.  ;)

I agree with ya...if I had to use only ine it would be 3787.  My Batch 400 Quad turned out great with it.  I use 1762 usually for dark stuff.  And I avoid 1214 because I don't care for it's ester profile.

3787 responds the best, IMO, to no temperature control. I usually pitch at 64 and let it go. It hangs around 64-66 for about 24-36 hours and peaks around 73 around 4 days in.

Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2018, 10:43:13 am »
I just love Trappist ales.

Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2018, 10:46:24 am »
3787 responds the best, IMO, to no temperature control. I usually pitch at 64 and let it go. It hangs around 64-66 for about 24-36 hours and peaks around 73 around 4 days in.

In my situation, I can't do no temp control.  But I use that pretty much that same fermentation temp schedule, just controlled in my ferm chamber.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell