Author Topic: Belgian dark strong  (Read 787 times)

Offline curtdogg

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Belgian dark strong
« on: December 06, 2018, 06:04:27 AM »
Suggested water profile for belgian dark strong in Brun Water.

Brown balanced, full or dry?
Ardennes?

Please and Thank you!

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 01:45:26 PM »
Suggested water profile for belgian dark strong in Brun Water.

Brown balanced, full or dry?
Ardennes?

Please and Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I'm in favor of minimalism when it comes to Trappist "Style" ales. What is your water like? Do you build up with RO/Distilled?

My typical water profile when brewing the "Quad" of these styles (Single, Dubbel, Tripel, and Dark Strong) is as follows:

1.) Use low alkalinity RO/Distilled water as a base;
2.) Add Gypsum and/or Calcium Chloride to hit 40-50 ppm Ca;
3.) Sulfate and Chloride driven by Gypsum and/or Calcium Chloride additions;
4.) Supplement Sulfate with Magnesium Sulfate (if need be);
5.) Add Sodium to taste (take notes) and to supplement Chloride;

I let the additions for Calcium pretty much dictate the rest of the profile.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

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Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 01:56:10 PM »
Thanks Big Monk,

I usually build up from RO.

After entering my grain bill into Brun water I'm at a mash pH of 5.4.
My plan is to Mash @ 154F until I squeeze all the SG out of the malt I can.
Do you recommend any steps in the mash?
Protein rest?  Acid rest?

I was looking at a balanced profile to keep it simple. I was leaning toward slightly higher chloride to help the malt come through. I will be using WLP 530 Abbey ale yeast.

Also may try a quasi open fermentation.

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 02:06:31 PM »
Thanks Big Monk,

I usually build up from RO.

After entering my grain bill into Brun water I'm at a mash pH of 5.4.
My plan is to Mash @ 154F until I squeeze all the SG out of the malt I can.
Do you recommend any steps in the mash?
Protein rest?  Acid rest?

I was looking at a balanced profile to keep it simple. I was leaning toward slightly higher chloride to help the malt come through. I will be using WLP 530 Abbey ale yeast.

Also may try a quasi open fermentation.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

From a mash standpoint, I am boring but consistent:

20 Min @ 145
10 Min @ 147-149
30 Min @ 162
10-15 Min @ 171

For a single infusion, I would imagine 60-70 Min @ 149 would better serve you than 154.

Definitely don't need an acid or protein rest.

What does the recipe look like? I love the Westmalle yeast, although I typically use 3787. I like Wyeast.
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 02:21:53 PM »
I'm using what my local HBS had in stock for yeast. I plan on using Straffe Hendrix Quad dregs for conditioning.

My grain bill is a combo of some of my leftover grain and what my HBS had in stock.

10lbs 2 row
2lbs Honey malt
2lbs Pale Ale malt
8oz special roast 118L
8oz Aromatic
8oz Carapils
8oz Pale Chocolate
1 lbs Dark candi sugar



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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 02:39:19 PM »
I'm using what my local HBS had in stock for yeast. I plan on using Straffe Hendrix Quad dregs for conditioning.

My grain bill is a combo of some of my leftover grain and what my HBS had in stock.

10lbs 2 row
2lbs Honey malt
2lbs Pale Ale malt
8oz special roast 118L
8oz Aromatic
8oz Carapils
8oz Pale Chocolate
1 lbs Dark candi sugar



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Well, good luck!
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline curtdogg

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 02:42:57 PM »
Thanks a bunch Big Monk.
I appreciate your input.

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Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 03:38:24 PM »
Thanks Big Monk,

I usually build up from RO.

After entering my grain bill into Brun water I'm at a mash pH of 5.4.
My plan is to Mash @ 154F until I squeeze all the SG out of the malt I can.
Do you recommend any steps in the mash?
Protein rest?  Acid rest?

I was looking at a balanced profile to keep it simple. I was leaning toward slightly higher chloride to help the malt come through. I will be using WLP 530 Abbey ale yeast.

Also may try a quasi open fermentation.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

From a mash standpoint, I am boring but consistent:

20 Min @ 145
10 Min @ 147-149
30 Min @ 162
10-15 Min @ 171

For a single infusion, I would imagine 60-70 Min @ 149 would better serve you than 154.

Definitely don't need an acid or protein rest.

What does the recipe look like? I love the Westmalle yeast, although I typically use 3787. I like Wyeast.

On your advice and that of several others, I've used that mash schedule on my last few continental brews.  Frankly, I havent seen any difference from my usual single temp mash.  I'm trying to figure out why my results are so different.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 05:17:08 PM »
On your advice and that of several others, I've used that mash schedule on my last few continental brews.  Frankly, I havent seen any difference from my usual single temp mash.  I'm trying to figure out why my results are so different.

So no changes in the body of the beer or foam?

I have to admit that from the standpoint of the beta rest temps, it's not a whole lot different. a 2 or even 3 step beta rest in the schedule is merely trying to take advantage of ideal beta mash temps. So I wouldn't expect you to see any changes in fermentation if that wasn't previously an issue.

I would have expected some changes in body and mouthfeel, as well as quality and duration of foam with the long rest at 162 and the prolonged mashout at 171.

When I first hooked up with Bryan, I was skeptical about whether adding different steps, especially the alpha rest at 162 and holding the mashout was going to make a difference. After a few brews I notice a few things:

1.) The multiple beta rests (in this case I still do 20 min at 145, 10 min at 148-149, and 5-10 min at 153) was helping me realize not only full conversion but also a few extra points off of the final gravity.

2.) There seemed to be a noticeable difference in the body of the beer. A sort of increase fullness which couples nicely with what are, in my case, highly attenuated beers.

3.) Without altering much of what I was already doing, I was getting glorious foam stands, almost mousse-like, which was long lasting with incredible lacing.

Now, inevitably, the comment will (and should for that matter) come along that it could be something else in the process giving me these gains. Given what I was already doing, my subjective opinion will be to the contrary.

It works for me and the results I've seen bear that out. To me at least. Taste is subjective, especially when you are the only one consuming your beer. With that said, we have a group of people who we interface with that have echoed some of the sentiments and gains I spoke of above.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

Check us out at www.lowoxygenbrewing.com

Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 05:28:49 PM »
On your advice and that of several others, I've used that mash schedule on my last few continental brews.  Frankly, I havent seen any difference from my usual single temp mash.  I'm trying to figure out why my results are so different.

So no changes in the body of the beer or foam?

I have to admit that from the standpoint of the beta rest temps, it's not a whole lot different. a 2 or even 3 step beta rest in the schedule is merely trying to take advantage of ideal beta mash temps. So I wouldn't expect you to see any changes in fermentation if that wasn't previously an issue.

I would have expected some changes in body and mouthfeel, as well as quality and duration of foam with the long rest at 162 and the prolonged mashout at 171.

When I first hooked up with Bryan, I was skeptical about whether adding different steps, especially the alpha rest at 162 and holding the mashout was going to make a difference. After a few brews I notice a few things:

1.) The multiple beta rests (in this case I still do 20 min at 145, 10 min at 148-149, and 5-10 min at 153) was helping me realize not only full conversion but also a few extra points off of the final gravity.

2.) There seemed to be a noticeable difference in the body of the beer. A sort of increase fullness which couples nicely with what are, in my case, highly attenuated beers.

3.) Without altering much of what I was already doing, I was getting glorious foam stands, almost mousse-like, which was long lasting with incredible lacing.

Now, inevitably, the comment will (and should for that matter) come along that it could be something else in the process giving me these gains. Given what I was already doing, my subjective opinion will be to the contrary.

It works for me and the results I've seen bear that out. To me at least. Taste is subjective, especially when you are the only one consuming your beer. With that said, we have a group of people who we interface with that have echoed some of the sentiments and gains I spoke of above.

No changes at all, and what you describe is exactly what I expected.  I know that a lot of people claim the improvements you mention.  That was why I was intrigued to try it.  But in maybe 5 brews now, I don't see any difference fromk my 148F 90 min. mashes
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 05:41:31 PM »
No changes at all, and what you describe is exactly what I expected.  I know that a lot of people claim the improvements you mention.  That was why I was intrigued to try it.  But in maybe 5 brews now, I don't see any difference fromk my 148F 90 min. mashes

At least you tried it!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 05:45:50 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

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Online Robert

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 05:52:10 PM »
I've played with a lot of iterations too over the years, with continental,  British and American malts.  I do find the extended rest at 158°-162°F and holding the ~170° mash off greatly improves the foam and mouthfeel,  and helps to some extent (reason debatable) in extracting the full yield.   What really surprises me is that no matter what I do with the lower temperature rests, it seems to have negligible effect on fermentability, for which reason I think I'll simplify to a single rest around 149°-150°F, time determined by progress of density measurements, followed by the alpha and mash off.  Theory and practice are not converging as expected.  I'm also thinking altering mash viscosity may prove a more effective tool for manipulating the relative contributions of the various enzymes and improving yield than fine tuning beta rests.

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Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2018, 06:00:00 PM »
No changes at all, and what you describe is exactly what I expected.  I know that a lot of people claim the improvements you mention.  That was why I was intrigued to try it.  But in maybe 5 brews now, I don't see any difference fromk my 148F 90 min. mashes

At least you tried it!

Sure.  It was easy to implement so there was no reason not to at least try.  Still don't understand the results, though.  And tried with several different brands of malt in case that made a diference.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 06:02:25 PM »
I've played with a lot of iterations too over the years, with continental,  British and American malts.  I do find the extended rest at 158°-162°F and holding the ~170° mash off greatly improves the foam and mouthfeel,  and helps to some extent (reason debatable) in extracting the full yield.   What really surprises me is that no matter what I do with the lower temperature rests, it seems to have negligible effect on fermentability, for which reason I think I'll simplify to a single rest around 149°-150°F, time determined by progress of density measurements, followed by the alpha and mash off.  Theory and practice are not converging as expected.  I'm also thinking altering mash viscosity may prove a more effective tool for manipulating the relative contributions of the various enzymes and improving yield than fine tuning beta rests.

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FWIW...I have experimented with mash viscosity many, many times and found it to have no effect.  It could be that you;re not seeing and effect on fermentability due to the high diastatic power of most malts.  I've reached the conclusion that the way to control body and fermentability is through recipe, not process.

Remember, reality often astonishes theory.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online Robert

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Re: Belgian dark strong
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2018, 06:07:58 PM »
I've played with a lot of iterations too over the years, with continental,  British and American malts.  I do find the extended rest at 158°-162°F and holding the ~170° mash off greatly improves the foam and mouthfeel,  and helps to some extent (reason debatable) in extracting the full yield.   What really surprises me is that no matter what I do with the lower temperature rests, it seems to have negligible effect on fermentability, for which reason I think I'll simplify to a single rest around 149°-150°F, time determined by progress of density measurements, followed by the alpha and mash off.  Theory and practice are not converging as expected.  I'm also thinking altering mash viscosity may prove a more effective tool for manipulating the relative contributions of the various enzymes and improving yield than fine tuning beta rests.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

FWIW...I have experimented with mash viscosity many, many times and found it to have no effect.  It could be that you;re not seeing and effect on fermentability due to the high diastatic power of most malts.  I've reached the conclusion that the way to control body and fermentability is through recipe, not process.

Remember, reality often astonishes theory.
Good to know.  So I'll choose viscosity based on convenience in my process.   Agree recipe is the  obvious thing to manipulate.  More caramel malts if you want less fermentability.   Choose the right yeast.  And I'm getting back to my old happy place with British beers lately; so to increase fermentability,  more brewing sugars!

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Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.