[denny]

NB, that is interesting insight into S-04 yeast. I’ve used it a couple of times and found it to be very bready when young, but it became quite tart with increasing age.

Exactly my experience, too.

[BrewBama]

That is so interesting: I don’t find S-04 to be tart at all. I find it ferments very quickly and leaves a crystal clear, clean sweetness in the beer.

However, I normally finish a keg in about four weeks so ‘age’ is really not in my repertoire.


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[Robert]

And can experiment in the glass with just a tiny pinch of like 1/64 teaspoon or whatever (and yes I actually have spoons to measure this).

And I have spoons designated as "tad, dash, pinch, and smidgen," in descending order.   As if Granny's hand could be standardized.

[mainebrewer]

And can experiment in the glass with just a tiny pinch of like 1/64 teaspoon or whatever (and yes I actually have spoons to measure this).

And I have spoons designated as "tad, dash, pinch, and smidgen," in descending order.   As if Granny's hand could be standardized.

And I thought that I was the only one with measuring spoons like that!   

[Robert]

Well, I just kegged a batch fermented with S-04 direct pitched.   Finished pH 4.11, perfectly normal.  So I can't be sure why I had such consistently low pH in direct pitch batches for such a run, but: 

The one thing different about this batch was that I was careful to acidify the wort at 10 minutes in the kettle to pH 5.0, rather than leave it where it landed on its own, a bit higher.  I was maybe lazy about this over the summer.   Not sure if that had an effect, but I have seen this with lagers (with liquid cultures,)  that a lower pH in pitching wort does not lead to the intuitively expected lower beer pH.   I know Prof Narziß has written about this in connection with acid malt and other methods of biological acidification,  maybe someone has an insight.  Still doesn't explain the different results I saw in subsequent generations.

As for me, I'm happy to have a dry ale yeast I quite like that now seems well behaved.  There won't be a repitch for comparison this time;  direct pitching a fresh sachet is just too cheap and easy.   What I was after in the first place.  Now if I can find a dry lager yeast I like just as much....

[BrewBama]

I’ve never adjust kettle pH at 10 min. <<I’ve been lazy for years!>> LOL

I am still very curious with the reason behind the low pH you experienced.  I find it interesting the company man didn’t engage further.  Seems like they’d want to know, too.

One thing I didn’t ask: do you condition your malt prior to milling?  Do you mill the day/night (or more) prior to brewing?

FWIW, I like S-189, W-34/70, M54 and M84. I’ve yet to try M76, S-23, or Diamond.

I also like S-04 for Ale because it is fast and floccs very well. The lower attenuation has to be planned for though.


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[Robert]

I’ve never adjust kettle pH at 10 min. <<I’ve been lazy for years!>> LOL

I am still very curious with the reason behind the low pH you experienced.  I find it interesting the company man didn’t engage further.  Seems like they’d want to know, too.

One thing I didn’t ask: do you condition your malt prior to milling?  Do you mill the day/night (or more) prior to brewing?

FWIW, I like S-189, W-34/70, M54 and M84. I’ve yet to try M76, S-23, or Diamond.

I also like S-04 for Ale because it is fast and floccs very well. The lower attenuation has to be planned for though.


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I don't condition, and usually mill the night before.

I don't always (don't often?) adjust kettle pH either, but I'm thinking this could have had an effect thusly:  If, as someone earlier in the thread hypothesized, the low pH resulted from (within normal tolerance)  bacterial contamination of the dry yeast, while the normal performance on repitching was because the yeast had outstripped the bacteria in the first generation, then the lower pH at pitching could have suppressed the bacteria in this most recent batch.   I'll have to check the technical information on the Fermentis site  to see if they mention an optimal pH for pitching wort.  And why did I have this problem and you didn't?   So many other variables, we'll never know what the key difference in our process is.

As to lager yeast,  thanks for the recommendations.   I've become disenchanted with 34/70 in all its forms, even though it was my house yeast through most of my 8-year lager mania.  The others I can get locally are S-23 and S-189, and maybe Diamond, not sure about that one.  Never used any MJ's, but will try anything.   

I really do like S-04 not just because it's quick and clears well, but I also like the flavor, and the attenuation is about what I expect of an English ale yeast. This weekend I'm going to direct pitch it again, and I'll report whether I get a repeat of this success.