[rbowers]

Looking for input on the following ESB recipe.  A style I have never been able to get exactly what I want in terms of malt flavor- always comes out a tad bland.  Previous versions have used Victory malt in one and aromatic in another.  Wondering if the above crystal and/or specialty malts need adjustment.
6.5 gal batch

12 Lb Maris Otter (90.6%)
6.9 oz Crystal 20 (3.2%)
6.4 oz Biscuit Malt (3%)
4oz crystal 120 (1.9%)
2.6oz Black Patent (for darker color) (1.2%)

78g EKG at 60 min (38 IBU)
28g EKG at whirlpool

WLP002 second generation harvested off a holiday ale (spices not added yet)

OG 1.057
38 IBU
~13 SRM

Thanks

[hopfenundmalz]

Not far off from what Fuller's uses for their ESB (trademarked in the UK). They use 5% crystal. Water and hops are important. London water with added gypsum, and IIRC they use target for bittering. There was an article in Zymurgy some years back.

[Robert]

I'm something of a purist,  I don't generally like any specialty malts in bitters (or many other British styles,) just pale malt and sugars.  (As Fullers once used. Fullers are something of an outlier these days in all their recipe formulations, and their ESB is a unique beer in a style to itself.  But delicious. )  I would hope to bring out the full flavor of the Maris Otter.  As Jeff points out, water is important to this end, and I'd look to other aspects of process to achieve this goal, such as keeping the intensity of the boil as low as possible, and so on.   But if you do choose to use specialty malts, I'd avoid aromatic/ Munich types as giving an inappropriate flavor.  Amber/biscuit types would be better suited.   And I might prefer a mid-range crystal to the light and dark blend -- these lend a more nutty, toasty flavor.   For the color adjustment, I've started doing a cold steep of the black malt and straining it into the boil at 10 minutes.   Minimizes the flavor contribution.  Got the idea here on the forum,  thanks.

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[BrewBama]

Here’s BYO’s version of Fuller’s. I’d probably go a different direction.



...something like this: https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/make-your-best-esb



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[Robert]

Here’s BYO’s version of Fuller’s. I’d probably go a different direction.



...something like this: https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-esb


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The recipe in the picture is several years old, Fullers brew all malt now.  Josh's approach looks very nice (as one would expect!)  though highly  Americanized.  I just have to disagree with him (sort of) on sugars.  Lyles Golden Syrup indeed won't do anything for you, as it's (contrary to rumor) no relation to brewers invert.  It's not even really an inverted sugar, and not made from raw cane.  But I've become convinced that various brewing sugars are in fact essential to classic British character, they are really the defining flavors in many cases.   But then there's Fullers.

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[Robert]

There was an article in Zymurgy some years back.

Thanks.  Fullers ESB is on my "clonetry to brew something really close to" brewing list.  Didn't know about the Zymurgy article (Mar 2006, p 34).  HomeBrewTalk also has recent (early 2018) topic (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fullers-recipes-for-esb-pride-chiswick-imperials-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/) that I thought was worth saving for later review.

There was one here around then too

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31463.0

[Robert]

Here’s BYO’s version of Fuller’s. I’d probably go a different direction.



...something like this: https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-esb


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The recipe in the picture is several years old, Fullers brew all malt now.  Josh's approach looks very nice (as one would expect!)  though highly  Americanized.  I just have to disagree with him (sort of) on sugars.  Lyles Golden Syrup indeed won't do anything for you, as it's (contrary to rumor) no relation to brewers invert.  It's not even really an inverted sugar, and not made from raw cane.  But I've become convinced that various brewing sugars are in fact essential to classic British character, they are really the defining flavors in many cases.   But then there's Fullers.

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I would pick one more bone with Josh.   Read again, and notice maintains that these beers are "made in the fermenter."  He recommends fermenting from the upper 60s F into the low 70s to produce esters.  But in fact, British practice is to pitch no higher than 59°-60°F, hold fermentation below 65°F, and allow rise to around 68°F for conditioning,  specifically keep the fermentation clean.   So where do the fruity characters come from?  Why, from brewing sugars,  of course.  (And hops.)  The flavors from invert  sugars range from apple, to plum and raisin and more.  Brewers who have abandoned a century or two of traditional brewing practice have a tall order in replicating these  classically English flavors.

[BrewBama]

I find it interesting how different brewers and their differing philosophies use different approaches. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose. What I enjoy about Josh’s series is that he explains why he chooses his ingredients and processes unlike some that simply say “do this”.  As you point out, whether you agree or you disagree, at least you’ll know why.  After all, the why is probably more important to me than the what.


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[Robert]

I find it interesting how different brewers and their differing philosophies use different approaches. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose. What I enjoy about Josh’s series is that he explains why he chooses his ingredients and processes unlike some that simply say “do this”.  As you point out, whether you agree or you disagree, at least you’ll know why.  After all, the why is probably more important to me than the what.


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That's exactly what I like about Josh too.  He starts from the effect he wants to achieve, and then explains step by step how he's going to build towards it.  So he may do something completely different from what another brewer would do, even the brewer of a beer he's "cloning," and his recipes may be more complex, but you learn to think about each ingredient and process.   Then get the flavor that's stuck in your head into your glass!     You can apply the same kind of approach -- breaking down the ingredients and processes of the original brewer to understand what effects they  have -- and then reverse engineer it however works for you.

(Slightly off topic.   I remember Josh talking about oatmeal stout, and how actual oatmeal won't make it taste like people think oats taste, but Victory malt would.   That's the heart of his way of thinking.)

[tommymorris]

I have an English Pale on tap right now that is delicious. I broke all the rules.

1051 OG
85.4% Briess Pale Ale Malt
6.7% Briess Caramel 60
7.8% Golden Promise (leftovers)
36 IBU Brewers Gold @ FWH
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 1
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 20 minute steep
MJ M36 Liberty Bell yeast

This beer turned out great. It has a nice caramel flavor along with an orange marmalade ester flavor that I love. The hops are great and give it a nice English character.

A bit off topic, but, Ted Hausotter wrote this in the description of the hops “Golding hops are the classic English hop.  These are grown in Oregon's Willamette valley and are beautiful.  They are used in ESB, Porter, Stout, Belgian, Blonds, US Ale, in fact they work in all ale styles.  My favorite for ESB!.  They are the same root stock as East Kent Goldings, just grown locally.”  So, I decided to try them. I didn’t have any English Malts on hand so I just went with Briess. Great hops and great beer.

[Robert]

I have an English Pale on tap right now that is delicious. I broke all the rules.

1051 OG
85.4% Briess Pale Ale Malt
6.7% Briess Caramel 60
7.8% Golden Promise (leftovers)
36 IBU Brewers Gold @ FWH
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 1
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 20 minute steep
MJ M36 Liberty Bell yeast

This beer turned out great. It has a nice caramel flavor along with an orange marmalade ester flavor that I love. The hops are great and give it a nice English character.

A bit off topic, but, Ted Hausotter wrote this in the description of the hops “Golding hops are the classic English hop.  These are grown in Oregon's Willamette valley and are beautiful.  They are used in ESB, Porter, Stout, Belgian, Blonds, US Ale, in fact they work in all ale styles.  My favorite for ESB!.  They are the same root stock as East Kent Goldings, just grown locally.”  So, I decided to try them. I didn’t have any English Malts on hand so I just went with Briess. Great hops and great beer.

Continuing a bit off topic,  the complication is this.  Golding is not a variety.   It has been, since the 1700s, a catchall term denoting the most desirable hops from certain growing areas, mostly around Kent.  Over the years, dozens if not hundreds of genetically distinct hops, which don't even share similar appearance or growing habits, have been sold under the name.   This isn't a knock, it's just what you get in traditional agricultural products,  much the same happened with Saaz and other old hops.  Right now at least half a dozen varieties are marketed as Golding, and East Kent is the preferred subset. The grower knows it by its varietal name, but the brewer only buys it as EKG, sort of like a DOC seal I suppose.  What this suggests to me is that of much greater importance than the  variety,  is the terroir of East Kent (again, happens in Žateč and elsewhere.)  So I've long been skeptical of North American grown Goldings.  You don't know which variety they planted, and that may not matter.  So getting to the point at hand.   Tommy, if Ted's hops worked for you, and really have the English Golding character, that's great news.   Are they pellet or whole cone?   If they're whole cone,  I have to get some!  (You sound like you captured a very elusive quality.   When asked what English beer tastes like, my standard response is "Orange marmalade on buttered sourdough toast.")

[mabrungard]

EKG is a great hop for English styles but Brewers Gold is really good too. I make an all Brewers Gold Best Bitter.

I use 88% pale with 8% Simpson Medium crystal, 2% Victory and 2% flaked wheat.

[Kevin]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

[Robert]

It's easy to include photos if you post from Tapatalk.   No separate hosting site needed.

[tommymorris]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

That’s an interesting sheet. It looks like the grain bill is

92.6% Simpsons (I wonder which malt?)
7.2% Crystal Light
0.2% Chocolate

The sheet lists 260 HL ESB @ 55.8, 520 HL LP (London Pride) @ 40.8, 260 HL CB (Chiswick Bitter) @ 34.5. I assume 55.8, 40.8, and 34.5 are the gravity points, which makes sense for those 3 beers.