[tommymorris]

I have an English Pale on tap right now that is delicious. I broke all the rules.

1051 OG
85.4% Briess Pale Ale Malt
6.7% Briess Caramel 60
7.8% Golden Promise (leftovers)
36 IBU Brewers Gold @ FWH
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 1
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 20 minute steep
MJ M36 Liberty Bell yeast

This beer turned out great. It has a nice caramel flavor along with an orange marmalade ester flavor that I love. The hops are great and give it a nice English character.

A bit off topic, but, Ted Hausotter wrote this in the description of the hops “Golding hops are the classic English hop.  These are grown in Oregon's Willamette valley and are beautiful.  They are used in ESB, Porter, Stout, Belgian, Blonds, US Ale, in fact they work in all ale styles.  My favorite for ESB!.  They are the same root stock as East Kent Goldings, just grown locally.”  So, I decided to try them. I didn’t have any English Malts on hand so I just went with Briess. Great hops and great beer.

Continuing a bit off topic,  the complication is this.  Golding is not a variety.   It has been, since the 1700s, a catchall term denoting the most desirable hops from certain growing areas, mostly around Kent.  Over the years, dozens if not hundreds of genetically distinct hops, which don't even share similar appearance or growing habits, have been sold under the name.   This isn't a knock, it's just what you get in traditional agricultural products,  much the same happened with Saaz and other old hops.  Right now at least half a dozen varieties are marketed as Golding, and East Kent is the preferred subset. The grower knows it by its varietal name, but the brewer only buys it as EKG, sort of like a DOC seal I suppose.  What this suggests to me is that of much greater importance than the  variety,  is the terroir of East Kent (again, happens in Žateč and elsewhere.)  So I've long been skeptical of North American grown Goldings.  You don't know which variety they planted, and that may not matter.  So getting to the point at hand.   Tommy, if Ted's hops worked for you, and really have the English Golding character, that's great news.   Are they pellet or whole cone?   If they're whole cone,  I have to get some!  (You sound like you captured a very elusive quality.   When asked what English beer tastes like, my standard response is "Orange marmalade on buttered sourdough toast.")

I am just a hack. I brew what tastes good to me. I think my beers are close to style, but, that is never my primary goal.

I get the orange marmalade every time I use the Mangrove Jack’s M36 Liberty Bell yeast. I love that yeast.

Regarding the Hop Heaven US Goldings hops: they taste English to me, but, YMMV.

[Robert]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

That’s an interesting sheet. It looks like the grain bill is

92.6% Simpsons (I wonder which malt?)
7.2% Crystal Light
0.2% Chocolate

The sheet lists 260 HL ESB @ 55.8, 520 HL LP (London Pride) @ 40.8, 260 HL CB (Chiswick Bitter) @ 34.5. I assume 55.8, 40.8, and 34.5 are the gravity points, which makes sense for those 3 beers.

The thread on HBT cited above contains Georgina  Young's (head brewer) explanation of the process, which makes sense (more or less) of the volumes and the two separate mash tuns, plus much that doesn't show on the log.  I think there may be some additional dilution beyond the brewhouse but I'd have to read that thread more carefully again, and I think I'm coming down with something and my head hurts enough.

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[Robert]

I have an English Pale on tap right now that is delicious. I broke all the rules.

1051 OG
85.4% Briess Pale Ale Malt
6.7% Briess Caramel 60
7.8% Golden Promise (leftovers)
36 IBU Brewers Gold @ FWH
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 1
0.75 oz/3G US Goldings @ 20 minute steep
MJ M36 Liberty Bell yeast

This beer turned out great. It has a nice caramel flavor along with an orange marmalade ester flavor that I love. The hops are great and give it a nice English character.

A bit off topic, but, Ted Hausotter wrote this in the description of the hops “Golding hops are the classic English hop.  These are grown in Oregon's Willamette valley and are beautiful.  They are used in ESB, Porter, Stout, Belgian, Blonds, US Ale, in fact they work in all ale styles.  My favorite for ESB!.  They are the same root stock as East Kent Goldings, just grown locally.”  So, I decided to try them. I didn’t have any English Malts on hand so I just went with Briess. Great hops and great beer.

Continuing a bit off topic,  the complication is this.  Golding is not a variety.   It has been, since the 1700s, a catchall term denoting the most desirable hops from certain growing areas, mostly around Kent.  Over the years, dozens if not hundreds of genetically distinct hops, which don't even share similar appearance or growing habits, have been sold under the name.   This isn't a knock, it's just what you get in traditional agricultural products,  much the same happened with Saaz and other old hops.  Right now at least half a dozen varieties are marketed as Golding, and East Kent is the preferred subset. The grower knows it by its varietal name, but the brewer only buys it as EKG, sort of like a DOC seal I suppose.  What this suggests to me is that of much greater importance than the  variety,  is the terroir of East Kent (again, happens in Žateč and elsewhere.)  So I've long been skeptical of North American grown Goldings.  You don't know which variety they planted, and that may not matter.  So getting to the point at hand.   Tommy, if Ted's hops worked for you, and really have the English Golding character, that's great news.   Are they pellet or whole cone?   If they're whole cone,  I have to get some!  (You sound like you captured a very elusive quality.   When asked what English beer tastes like, my standard response is "Orange marmalade on buttered sourdough toast.")

I am just a hack. I brew what tastes good to me. I think my beers are close to style, but, that is never my primary goal.

I get the orange marmalade every time I use the Mangrove Jack’s M36 Liberty Bell yeast. I love that yeast.

Regarding the Hop Heaven US Goldings hops. They taste English to me, but, YMMV.

I'll have to try that yeast at some point.   I've sort of assumed a chunk of the oranginess is hop based.  It seems Golding (and Brewers Gold) is hard to come by right now.  And it looks like Ted's listings are all 2016 and 2017 crops.  BTW, from the USDA data, it looks like the "Golding" planted in the US since 1994 is Canterbury Whitebine, one of the Kent hops.  Others seem to have been grown here before, don't know which.  The other current Kent varieties are Cobb, Early Bird, Eastwell, Bramling, and Mathon.  Reportedly they're all fruitier and less earthy here.  Terroir again.  For giggles, I'm going to try slipping some Amarillo into my bitters.  I'll report if it helps with orange peel/marmalade thing.  I could live with less "fresh English dirt in the morning."

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[Robert]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

That’s an interesting sheet. It looks like the grain bill is

92.6% Simpsons (I wonder which malt?)
7.2% Crystal Light
0.2% Chocolate

The sheet lists 260 HL ESB @ 55.8, 520 HL LP (London Pride) @ 40.8, 260 HL CB (Chiswick Bitter) @ 34.5. I assume 55.8, 40.8, and 34.5 are the gravity points, which makes sense for those 3 beers.

I'd take a flyer that the "Simpsons" is Best Pale, not a varietal.  But what do I know.   If the crystal light is Simpsons too, that puts it at 40L.  (I prefer Crisp 45L in that range, but that's me.)  Pieces coming together .

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[Robert]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

That’s an interesting sheet. It looks like the grain bill is

92.6% Simpsons (I wonder which malt?)
7.2% Crystal Light
0.2% Chocolate

The sheet lists 260 HL ESB @ 55.8, 520 HL LP (London Pride) @ 40.8, 260 HL CB (Chiswick Bitter) @ 34.5. I assume 55.8, 40.8, and 34.5 are the gravity points, which makes sense for those 3 beers.

I'd take a flyer that the "Simpsons" is Best Pale, not a varietal.  But what do I know.   If the crystal light is Simpsons too, that puts it at 40L.  (I prefer Crisp 45L in that range, but that's me.)  Pieces coming together .

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Found this pic on the Fullers site.  All the malt looks to be Simpsons, but can't read the labels on the pallets of Pale. 

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[tommymorris]

If you can decipher a brewers log here is the ESB/London Pride/Chiswick Bitter partigyle recipe direct from Haley Marlor a brewer at Fullers.

PS. Anyone know an alternative to photobucket that doesn't put a hideous watermark on photos?

That’s an interesting sheet. It looks like the grain bill is

92.6% Simpsons (I wonder which malt?)
7.2% Crystal Light
0.2% Chocolate

The sheet lists 260 HL ESB @ 55.8, 520 HL LP (London Pride) @ 40.8, 260 HL CB (Chiswick Bitter) @ 34.5. I assume 55.8, 40.8, and 34.5 are the gravity points, which makes sense for those 3 beers.

I'd take a flyer that the "Simpsons" is Best Pale, not a varietal.  But what do I know.   If the crystal light is Simpsons too, that puts it at 40L.  (I prefer Crisp 45L in that range, but that's me.)  Pieces coming together .

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Found this pic on the Fullers site.  All the malt looks to be Simpsons, but can't read the labels on the pallets of Pale. 

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From the Simpson’s blog post linked below:
“Best Pale Ale Malt is the soul of our beer, and we get the best Brewhouse extract from Simpsons Malt.” – Georgina Young, Head Brewer, Fullers

https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/blog/malt-of-the-month-best-pale-ale-malt/

[BrewBama]

I’m loving all the detective work.  What’s no.3 powder?

“Fuller’s and Simpsons have been in business for decades, dating back to the early 1940s. Our previous maltsters were bombed during the war and so Fuller’s allegedly looked further afield, away from the bombing in London. Nowadays, Fuller’s orders between 1000-2000 tonnes of malt from Simpsons every year. “

https://www.fullers.co.uk/griffin-stories/simpson-malts

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[tommymorris]

Could it be this additive?

BYF No.3: BYF No3  is used asa dry acid for reduction of alkalinity in brewing liquor.

https://murphyandson.co.uk/store/liquor-treatments/453-byf-no3-25-kg.html

[rbowers]

Alright made a few tweaks to the malt bill:
Cut out the 2 crystal malts and sub in english medium crystal.  Haven' tried amber malt but will give it a go here.  Suggestions I read said to keep it at a pretty low percentage given intensity.  2% seems pretty low but others may have different opinion.

92% MO
5% English Med Crystal
1% Black Patent
2% Amber Malt

[Robert]

I have in fact come down with something, but, lying awake coughing and aching, I've had some thoughts.   I would not take a "recipe" extrapolated from that log at face value,  and here's why.

In a standard parti gyle (literally "split batch,") a single wort, of a higher gravity than the strongest beer to be made, is mashed, sparged, boiled, chilled, and divided into multiple fermenters.  Before pitching, each fermenter is diluted with water to the desired OG, thus producing versions of the same beer, with same balance,  at different gravities.

Fuller's process represents a complication.   Two different worts, of different gravities and different compositions, are taken from mash-in to chill separately,  then blended in different proportions into the fermenters before the final dilution.  The worts are of different compositions, or there would be no point to the elaboration:

One might expect all of the roast and crystal malts, for instance, to go only into the second mash tun for the weaker wort.  Hence on blending, beers could be produced that, though of different gravities, have a similar color,  and weaker beers could have a palate fullness and richness naturally present in the stronger beer with less need for crystal, and so on.  I would also expect the weaker wort to receive a disproportionate amount of the hops.  Thereby weaker beers can drink drier and more refreshing,  and stronger beers, being relatively sweeter,  will not be deceptively and dangerously drinkable.  (This last is counterintuitive to Americans who have come to expect stronger beers to be hoppier, but it has always been the English preference.)

So we may know the weights of various malts and hops that ultimately produced the stated volumes of each beer at each gravity.   But we do not know how these ingredients were apportioned.  (Maybe why Fullers are so willing to share images of their books:  they're not really giving away the secrets.)  It might be possible to reverse engineer each "blend" from available information,  but I am not up to it. 

[mabrungard]

BYF No.3? I haven't heard of it and I'm not finding definitive info on the web. I can't even find a Safety Data Sheet for it. Very curious as to what it is.

[tommymorris]

I have in fact come down with something, but, lying awake coughing and aching, I've had some thoughts.   I would not take a "recipe" extrapolated from that log at face value,  and here's why.

In a standard parti gyle (literally "split batch,") a single wort, of a higher gravity than the strongest beer to be made, is mashed, sparged, boiled, chilled, and divided into multiple fermenters.  Before pitching, each fermenter is diluted with water to the desired OG, thus producing versions of the same beer, with same balance,  at different gravities.

Fuller's process represents a complication.   Two different worts, of different gravities and different compositions, are taken from mash-in to chill separately,  then blended in different proportions into the fermenters before the final dilution.  The worts are of different compositions, or there would be no point to the elaboration:

One might expect all of the roast and crystal malts, for instance, to go only into the second mash tun for the weaker wort.  Hence on blending, beers could be produced that, though of different gravities, have a similar color,  and weaker beers could have a palate fullness and richness naturally present in the stronger beer with less need for crystal, and so on.  I would also expect the weaker wort to receive a disproportionate amount of the hops.  Thereby weaker beers can drink drier and more refreshing,  and stronger beers, being relatively sweeter,  will not be deceptively and dangerously drinkable.  (This last is counterintuitive to Americans who have come to expect stronger beers to be hoppier, but it has always been the English preference.)

So we may know the weights of various malts and hops that ultimately produced the stated volumes of each beer at each gravity.   But we do not know how these ingredients were apportioned.  (Maybe why Fullers are so willing to share images of their books:  they're not really giving away the secrets.)  It might be possible to reverse engineer each "blend" from available information,  but I am not up to it.

They have a column on the sheet for No. 1 Tun and No. 2 Tun with ingredient amounts listed for each. The amounts for each tun are nearly identical although not exactly the same.

[BrewBama]

While I know the partygyle method was(is) certainly used, coupled with the hop schedule from the BYO recipe which seems to somewhat emulate the Brewery Log, 92/7/.2 ~ ish doesn’t seem so bad an all malt ESB recipe to me.



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[tommymorris]

While I know the partygyle method was(is) certainly used, coupled with the hop schedule from the BYO recipe which seems to somewhat emulate the Brewery Log, 92/7/.2 ~ ish doesn’t seem so bad an all malt ESB recipe to me.



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I agree. That grain bill seems to validate a lot of advice on this forum.  My last Bitter was just Pale Ale and Caramel malt, but, I have added a bit of chocolate in the past on the advice of S. Cerevisiae (Mark). But, when I did that I was more like 0.5-1% chocolate. I specifically dropped it on this last batch because I wanted to eliminate the nutty taste. So, the 0.2% chocolate is interesting to me.  I wonder how much taste that imparts. It might be a subtle taste that is positive or it may just be color. If it’s just color, I don’t care to bother.

[Kevin]

Here are some more Fuller's information I turned up over the weekend... along with discovering a little specialty beer and wine store outside of town that stocks Fullers London Pride, ESB and Porter.

Ron Pattinson has brew logs he obtained while working in an advisory role with Fullers in developing their "Past Masters" series. This article has a snapshot of a 5-gyle brew from 1962 which includes Golden Pride, Export London Pride, London Pride, Pale Ale and Ordinary Bitter...

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/05/fullers-party-gyle-from-1968.html