[Kevin]

One more discovery... The Brewing Network's "Can You Brew it" podcast has an episode where they brewed both ESB and London Pride with a side by side comparison with fresh examples direct from the brewery. Their panel declared both to be accurate clones. When listening they provide the recipe and brewing process at about the 50:30 mark of the broadcast.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1633/

[Robert]

  It seems Golding (and Brewers Gold) is hard to come by right now.  And it looks like Ted's listings are all 2016 and 2017 crops. 

Found 2018 crop, whole cone, US Golding at Freshops (not necessarily my first choice, but the only source I found.)  Had the presence of mind to order some,  so, by the time I get over this flu, catch up on real life,  and have time to brew again,  I should have them.  I'll report the results.

[tommymorris]

  It seems Golding (and Brewers Gold) is hard to come by right now.  And it looks like Ted's listings are all 2016 and 2017 crops. 

Found 2018 crop, whole cone, US Golding at Freshops (not necessarily my first choice, but the only source I found.)  Had the presence of mind to order some,  so, by the time I get over this flu, catch up on real life,  and have time to brew again,  I should have them.  I'll report the results.

I hope you like the US Goldings. If you don’t like them, you can blame your flu for convincing you to take my advice on using Goldings from the US. I hope you feel better.

[goose]

Just got around to reading these posts.  I use Challenger for bittering and EKG for flavor and aroma in my ESB's.

Grain bill is 75% Maris Otter, 10% 40L, and 5% each of Biscuit, Wheat, and Carapils.  Note that I am not trying to clone Fullers here. I like a bit more bready flavors in my ESB and usually bitter it a bit higher in the 40 IBU range for competitions since the beer tends to mellow out balance-wise in about a month or so.  It seems to score well in competitions.  It is also a favorite of my wife who threatened me with bodily harm if I changed the recipe!

Agree with Jeff that water is important.  Although I do not Burtonize my water (I think it makes the beer a bit harsh) it still has a significant level of sulfate in it to enhance the bitterness.

Just another view on this topic.

[hopfenundmalz]

Just got around to reading these posts.  I use Challenger for bittering and EKG for flavor and aroma in my ESB's.

Grain bill is 75% Maris Otter, 10% 40L, and 5% each of Biscuit, Wheat, and Carapils.  Note that I am not trying to clone Fullers here. I like a bit more bready flavors in my ESB and usually bitter it a bit higher in the 40 IBU range for competitions since the beer tends to mellow out balance-wise in about a month or so.  It seems to score well in competitions.  It is also a favorite of my wife who threatened me with bodily harm if I changed the recipe!

Agree with Jeff that water is important.  Although I do not Burtonize my water (I think it makes the beer a bit harsh) it still has a significant level of sulfate in it to enhance the bitterness.

Just another view on this topic.

Challenger is a fine British hop.

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

[BrewBama]

...  It is also a favorite of my wife who threatened me with bodily harm if I changed the recipe!

Agree with Jeff that water is important.  Although I do not Burtonize my water (I think it makes the beer a bit harsh) it still has a significant level of sulfate in it to enhance the bitterness.

Just another view on this topic.

Challenger is a fine British hop.

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

The plot thickens!  ...what better endorsement of a fine recipe that a threat of bodily harm if you change it!?



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[mabrungard]

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

Fullers is likely using River Thames water from the local supplier as opposed to the London Aquifer water which is better suited to Porter brewing. The Thames water has modest mineralization, so the inclusion of gypsum makes sense to me.

[hopfenundmalz]

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

Fullers is likely using River Thames water from the local supplier as opposed to the London Aquifer water which is better suited to Porter brewing. The Thames water has modest mineralization, so the inclusion of gypsum makes sense to me.

I agree. The water utility in London is called Thames Water. It comes from reservoirs west of London feed by the River Thames, up from the brackish tide Waters. If you fly into Heathrow from a Westerly approach you go over some of those reservoirs.

[BrewBama]

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

Fullers is likely using River Thames water from the local supplier as opposed to the London Aquifer water which is better suited to Porter brewing. The Thames water has modest mineralization, so the inclusion of gypsum makes sense to me.

I agree. The water utility in London is called Thames Water. It comes from reservoirs west of London feed by the River Thames, up from the brackish tide Waters. If you fly into Heathrow from a Westerly approach you go over some of those reservoirs.

Here’s the 2017 utility report for another data point (they boil prior to building correct?): http://twmediadevcdn.azureedge.net/waterquality/WQ%20Report_Z0347_Chiswick%20&%20Hammersmith.pdf


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[Robert]

When I lived in London, I recall there was a fairly complicated distribution system designed to maximize gravity flow.  Living near Hampstead, the highest elevation in Greater London, we reportedly got water by aqueduct from some 60 miles northwest in the Chiltern Hills,  which was fairly mineralized.   Water from the London Aquifer was, I think, distributed to areas where it could be fed by gravity.   And Thames water pumped uphill only where this was the only option.   Just my recollection, and this was 30 years  ago, but a reminder of the caveat that you never know just what a brewery's source water is just by its location on a map.  And "Thames" in the name of the utility designates service area more than guarantees the source.  Like "Thames Television."

[hopfenundmalz]

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

Fullers is likely using River Thames water from the local supplier as opposed to the London Aquifer water which is better suited to Porter brewing. The Thames water has modest mineralization, so the inclusion of gypsum makes sense to me.

I agree. The water utility in London is called Thames Water. It comes from reservoirs west of London feed by the River Thames, up from the brackish tide Waters. If you fly into Heathrow from a Westerly approach you go over some of those reservoirs.

Here’s the 2017 utility report for another data point (they boil prior to building correct?): http://twmediadevcdn.azureedge.net/waterquality/WQ%20Report_Z0347_Chiswick%20&%20Hammersmith.pdf


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I don't know if they boil.

[hopfenundmalz]

When I lived in London, I recall there was a fairly complicated distribution system designed to maximize gravity flow.  Living near Hampstead, the highest elevation in Greater London, we reportedly got water by aqueduct from some 60 miles northwest in the Chiltern Hills,  which was fairly mineralized.   Water from the London Aquifer was, I think, distributed to areas where it could be fed by gravity.   And Thames water pumped uphill only where this was the only option.   Just my recollection, and this was 30 years  ago, but a reminder of the caveat that you never know just what a brewery's source water is just by its location on a map.  And "Thames" in the name of the utility designates service area more than guarantees the source.  Like "Thames Television."

I assume you enjoyed living near Hampstead. Wonderful area.

Fuller's brewery is right on the River, so it would get the water from the utilities upstream source, no?

[Robert]

When I lived in London, I recall there was a fairly complicated distribution system designed to maximize gravity flow.  Living near Hampstead, the highest elevation in Greater London, we reportedly got water by aqueduct from some 60 miles northwest in the Chiltern Hills,  which was fairly mineralized.   Water from the London Aquifer was, I think, distributed to areas where it could be fed by gravity.   And Thames water pumped uphill only where this was the only option.   Just my recollection, and this was 30 years  ago, but a reminder of the caveat that you never know just what a brewery's source water is just by its location on a map.  And "Thames" in the name of the utility designates service area more than guarantees the source.  Like "Thames Television."

I assume you enjoyed living near Hampstead. Wonderful area.

Fuller's brewery is right on the River, so it would get the water from the utilities upstream source, no?

That would make sense, but I wouldn't presume to guess how the engineers arrange such a massive operation,  and I assume it's always a work in progress with demand always changing.

 But the water report BrewBama linked, which is for the immediate  neighborhood of the brewery, is our best resource,  assuming they are just hooked into the local mains.   If they preboil, I can see it looking a lot like my water (similar Na, Cl and SO4 but around half the hardness and alkalinity.)  Then adding gypsum alone should get a good mash pH with under 400ppm SO4.   (Still more than suits my taste, but I may never understand how the English get away with such highly mineralized liquor and I can't.)

And yes, many pleasant memories of living in that area (more specifically,  Belsize Park.)  It's where I started homebrewing, after all!

[Kevin]

On the Fuller's tour the guide said they just add gypsum to the London water. Saw a stack of gypsum bags by the HLT.

Fullers is likely using River Thames water from the local supplier as opposed to the London Aquifer water which is better suited to Porter brewing. The Thames water has modest mineralization, so the inclusion of gypsum makes sense to me.

In an interview a few years back then head brewer John Keeling said they use the London municipal water.