[Joe T]

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I was listening to an old brewstrong episode (HSA 1/26/09) featuring an interview with Bamforth. In it Bamforth states,"oxygen reacts with gel proteins to cross-link them and that causes this sticky gel formation called the 'teig'".
I found a paper titled "the formation and hydrolysis of barley malt gel protein under different mashing conditions". Bamforth, among others, is cited as a source. Highlights from what I can understand of it include, formation of the teig is ongoing through the duration of the mash, occurs fastest at pH 5.0 and slowest at pH 5.5, a protein rest is not helpful to prevent it, the enzymes responsible are  denatured at 80°C, and can be mitigated by excluding oxygen.

It ends with: "as a conclusion the balance between formation and hy-drolysis of gel-protein aggregate appears to be difficult to
control. It is not possible to adjust the pH value low
enough to accelerate gel-protein hydrolysis without caus-
ing inefficient starch hydrolysis. Lengthening the time of
the proteolysis rest is also not suitable because it causes
formation of excess FAN. Instead, the level of oxygen can
be adjusted without adverse effects. The amount of the
gel-protein aggregate can be diminished by preventing oxi-
dation and furthermore the wort separation is improved."

I'm not sure how this helps me address my lautering woes, but I may try a higher pH- I've been mashing at ~pH 5.1-5.2.

[Robert]

I would bet any effect will be insignificant with respect to lautering if you're really having difficulties.   I would think your best course of action is to continue to seek a physical/ mechanical solution.   That being said, I've been reading more in depth on pH and believe that the received wisdom around here may be off.  I think the ideal is 5.2-5.4 at mash temperature, which would be higher (5.5- 5.8 ) at the measurement standard of room temperature, also the value given by most software.  (So Bamforth and Briggs, et al. indicate.) This may then require an acid addition for reduction of the kettle pH to effectively separate the break and utilize kettle finings.  I realize this is another can of worms, but you may as well try it.  Report any effects.

[RC]

While your mash pH is on the lower end of the optimal pH spectrum, I'll speculate that the teig behind your lautering issues would form anyway, because your crush is likely too fine. There are other reasons to increase the pH a tick, but as Robert suggests, adjusting your crush in conjunction with (if necessary) gently cutting/mixing the topmost later of mash is probably the simplest bet.

[Robert]

I'll speculate that the teig behind your lautering issues would form anyway,

Which, remember,  is a good thing.   One of the goals in mashing is to separate substances which are ultimately insoluble.   You don't want to avoid forming teig, just to manage it.

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[kramerog]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

[denny]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

[ynotbrusum]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

Denny, are you saying that you underlet the mash, despite no differences found?  (If so, why do you underlet?) Or are you addressing the pH bump (suggested by Kramerog) and stating that you have seen no such effect?  Just wondering....

[denny]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

Denny, are you saying that you underlet the mash, despite no differences found?  (If so, why do you underlet?) Or are you addressing the pH bump (suggested by Kramerog) and stating that you have seen no such effect?  Just wondering....

Sorry, I was talking about underletting.  I still do it because it's easy and no lift.

[kramerog]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

Did you have a problem with teig before underletting?  If not, then your statement doesn't prove much
because Bamforth recommends "adjusting [i.e., lowering] the oxygen level" in the mash.

[Joe T]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

I've been practicing low oxygen techniques for the past two years, including underletting.

[denny]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

Did you have a problem with teig before underletting?  If not, then your statement doesn't prove much
because Bamforth recommends "adjusting [i.e., lowering] the oxygen level" in the mash.

Good point.  Only very seldom.  Only maybe 5 out of 535 batches.

[BrewBama]

Reduce oxygen exposure!  One way to do this is to fill your mash tun with grains and then underlet the strike water (provide strike water through drain valve).  This gently pushes out the air between the malt and tends to result in less dough balls reducing the amount of stirring necessary.  Unfortunately, this  tends to take more time than filling over the top. 

Also bump up your pH as discussed above.

FWIW, I have found no differences since I started underletting.

Interesting. I’ve found two advantages to underletting: 1) no lifting heavy pots of hot water. I’ve never had an issue and am perfectly capable but I always felt this was a dumb thing to do. 2) no dough balls. Though I still stir gently to check, I am amazed that I have not found a dough ball since I began pumping thru the drain valve.  All the grain is wet but no dough balls. 

There is the disadvantage of underletting taking longer but because I only brew ~ once a month time is not a concern (within reason). I enjoy the process as much as the product so taking a few more minutes doesn’t bother me.


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[ynotbrusum]

I do a hybrid underletting by slowly lowering my grain basket (lined with a brew bag and filled with the grist) into the strike water, before stirring gently and then using a closed HERMS recirculation with manifold and mash cap, for a lower oxygen approach.  I like my results in terms of few to no doughballs, clear runnings, and reasonably good efficiency for no sparge.  No noticeable Teig as such, but I’m not testing for it.