Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Another Dunkel thread  (Read 1867 times)

Offline jeffy

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4222
  • Tampa, Fl
Another Dunkel thread
« on: October 15, 2019, 02:05:21 pm »
I had some really nice German lagers in Denver last week and want to brew a Dunkel next.  I have ordered a sack of Barke Munich for 95% of the grain bill.
What I am wondering about is the type of water I want to shoot for in Bru'n Water.  Is Brown/Full better than Munich (straight or boiled) or is there a more appropriate water formula to shoot for in this style?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27093
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2019, 02:44:16 pm »
Never use a city profile.  There's no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2019, 03:02:22 pm »
^^^^
+1,000. 

Brewers also often have a different source than the city water report you see, and even the Reinheitsgebot allows brewers to add or remove any minerals they like, as long as the result is still water that could, in theory, exist somewhere in the natural world.  They modify the water any way they have to, to a) hit their desired pH and b) get the flavor profile they want in the beer.  We should follow suit.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6050
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 03:12:47 pm »
I recently brewed a Dunkel and used Bru’n Water’s Brown Balanced profile:

Calcium (Ca): 50.0 ppm
Magnesium (Mg): 10.0 ppm
Sodium (Na): 27.0 ppm
Sulfate (SO4): 70.0 ppm
Chloride (Cl): 55.0 ppm
Bicarbonate (HCO3): 90.0 ppm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 04:16:24 pm »
^^^^
+1,000. 

Brewers also often have a different source than the city water report you see, and even the Reinheitsgebot allows brewers to add or remove any minerals they like, as long as the result is still water that could, in theory, exist somewhere in the natural world.  They modify the water any way they have to, to a) hit their desired pH and b) get the flavor profile they want in the beer.  We should follow suit.

They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger.

I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 6050
Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 04:34:22 pm »
Here’s Kai’s Dunkel water:

58mg/L Ca; 3mg/L Mg; 32mg/L Na; 10mg/L SO4; 21mg/L Cl; 150mg/L HCO3


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 04:47:27 pm »


They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger.

I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut.
Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline jeffy

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4222
  • Tampa, Fl
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 05:20:25 am »
So, would the consensus be "brown balanced" then?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 05:23:41 am »
I'd say the choice of "balanced" or "full" is one of personal taste.  What are you after?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4724
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 06:08:56 am »
So, would the consensus be "brown balanced" then?

That would be my own suggestion.  Consensus?  Probably.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 10678
  • Milford, MI
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 07:30:29 am »


They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger.

I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut.
Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed.

Well, if it is in Kunze, it is allowed. Thanks.

They also use deoxygenated water via stripping columns, as no SMB is allowed.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4214
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 08:02:01 am »


They can blend water from a shallow alkaline well and a deep well with low mineral content, i.e. Ayinger.

I know they can add Gypsum and CaCl2. Not sure about other minerals. Sauergut is used to acidify. Acidulated malt is malt sprayed with ssuegut.
Kunze covers every water  treatment process imaginable.  The only thing not permitted is the use of acid not resulting from microbes native to the barley grain.  This seems a bit absurd when one considers the multitude of unnatural things, for example the sterilization of water with chlorine dioxide or silver ions, that are allowed.

Well, if it is in Kunze, it is allowed. Thanks.

They also use deoxygenated water via stripping columns, as no SMB is allowed.
Yes Kunze makes clear when something is not permitted by German law.   But I find it amusing how often he will go into great detail on how to do something, touting its undeniable benefits, and then, almost with a wink, say that of course we must never do this under the law.  If the Reinheitsgebot is not already one of the most flouted laws in history, German brewers must often wish they could get around it.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2902
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 06:49:26 pm »
Never use a city profile.  There's no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go.

Well, not really. The thing that historical profiles help illustrate, is the level of flavor ions in the water. In the case of Munich Dunkel, I always use the Munich profile to guide the level of sulfate and chloride, but the levels of Ca, Mg, and HCO3 are largely dependent upon other factors. I have liked the results for my Dunkels when I use the "Add all hardness minerals to the Mash" tool in Bru'n Water. That enables me to target a minimal Ca content of around 40 to 50 ppm in the mash and then that content is diluted when I add the nearly ion-free RO for sparging.
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline jeffy

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4222
  • Tampa, Fl
Re: Another Dunkel thread
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2019, 06:40:12 am »
Never use a city profile.  There's no way of knowing what the brewer does with the water.  The color/flavor profiles are the way to go.

Well, not really. The thing that historical profiles help illustrate, is the level of flavor ions in the water. In the case of Munich Dunkel, I always use the Munich profile to guide the level of sulfate and chloride, but the levels of Ca, Mg, and HCO3 are largely dependent upon other factors. I have liked the results for my Dunkels when I use the "Add all hardness minerals to the Mash" tool in Bru'n Water. That enables me to target a minimal Ca content of around 40 to 50 ppm in the mash and then that content is diluted when I add the nearly ion-free RO for sparging.
You're saying you don't want the Ca content more than 40 to 50 ppm? The Brown Balanced has it at 50 while Munich is at 77 and boiled Munich is 12.  I guess the main thing you are telling me is to keep the sulphate and chloride levels very low (18 and 8 respectively in Munich water, 77 and 55 in Brown Balanced).
In either case I will most likely build the water from RO.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995