Author Topic: Starsan and frementation  (Read 478 times)

Offline Starbuck Greywolf

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Starsan and frementation
« on: January 28, 2019, 11:01:53 PM »
I had starsan in my airlock and it got sucked into my brew will it halt fermentation :-\?

Online Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 11:16:56 PM »
No.  Tiny amount, and Star San isn't very effective at killing yeast and fungi anyway, just bacteria.   Fill it back up, and RDWHAHB.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline KellerBrauer

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
  • Bottoms Up!
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2019, 01:47:44 PM »
I think Greywolf poses a great question, something I’ve always pondered.  StarSan kills bacteria, as Robert points out, and yeast is bacteria.  They say StarSan is a “no rinse” sanitizer.  But I have always rinsed with cold water anyway.  I understand that doing so opens up the possibility of infection, but....

So, what is the actual relationship between StarSan and yeast?  Why are the two okay to put together?
All good things come to those who show patients and perseverance while maintaining a positive and progressive attitude. :-)

Online Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 01:51:06 PM »
YEAST IS NOT A BACTERIA.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline KellerBrauer

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
  • Bottoms Up!
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 01:55:43 PM »
YEAST IS NOT A BACTERIA.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

I stand corrected, thanks Robert.  Yeast is in the Fungus family.
All good things come to those who show patients and perseverance while maintaining a positive and progressive attitude. :-)

Offline Todd H.

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 02:32:47 PM »
No.  Tiny amount, and Star San isn't very effective at killing yeast and fungi anyway, just bacteria.   Fill it back up, and RDWHAHB.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Star San kills yeast too.  Here's a very good explanation from Sui Generis. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo

Online Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 02:54:17 PM »
No.  Tiny amount, and Star San isn't very effective at killing yeast and fungi anyway, just bacteria.   Fill it back up, and RDWHAHB.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Star San kills yeast too.  Here's a very good explanation from Sui Generis. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo
Wow, a lot of effort went into constructing this ad hominem argument against a red herring.   I've never heard this "myth" that is being "debunked."  The general understanding is simply that while, as addressed here, acid anionic sanitizers kill cells, yeast and fungi produce spores, against which these products are ineffective.   Halogen based sanitizers destroy the spores as well.  And apparently there is still more to it than that, because I am one of many who have experienced mold growing in Star San itself.  Iodophor (and chlorine) being both cheaper and effective on the full spectrum of potential sources of infection,  it is a pretty easy choice.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline Todd H.

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 07:44:32 PM »

[/quote]Wow, a lot of effort went into constructing this ad hominem argument against a red herring.   I've never heard this "myth" that is being "debunked."  The general understanding is simply that while, as addressed here, acid anionic sanitizers kill cells, yeast and fungi produce spores, against which these products are ineffective.   Halogen based sanitizers destroy the spores as well.  And apparently there is still more to it than that, because I am one of many who have experienced mold growing in Star San itself.  Iodophor (and chlorine) being both cheaper and effective on the full spectrum of potential sources of infection,  it is a pretty easy choice.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk
[/quote]

You said you have never heard this "myth", but you literally said here Star San isn't effective at killing yeast.

As far as I'm aware, it's a pain in the butt to induce sporulation in brewing yeast due to aneuploidy, so I'm not sure that you have to worry about brewing yeast spores in your carboys (see for example https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/yea.320050603) (I could be wrong though, and anyways there definitely are other fungal spores floating around your basement or wherever you brew).

I've had mold grow on the inside of the lid of my Star San bucket, but not in the Star San itself.

Anyways you're right, iodophor and bleach work.  We'd bleach yeast cultures in the lab to kill them before flushing them down the sink an hour later.

Online Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 08:33:37 PM »
Todd,

I apologize if the tone of my last post was inappropriately sarcastic.  Hadn't had my coffee yet.   As if that's an excuse.

When I said I'd "never heard the myth," I meant this specific argument, that somehow the culprits are necessarily presumed to be the surfactants and electric charges.  I'd never heard of this proposed explanation, taken up as the only one to be countered in the presentation.  This counterargument seems to miss the outstanding points that a) spores are still a potential problem and b) there's empirical evidence that Star San is not reliably effective against some organisms other than spores due to some mechanism, and if not the one disproved in this presentation, then there must be some other; so that this presentation,  while factual,  is not dispositive of the question of whether Star San is as effective as halogen based sanitizers in the brewery.

As to a) If you are concerned with possible infection in your brewery, the most common airborne source you need to be concerned about, that may escape acid sanitizers, is wild yeast (far more sporulant that domesticated) and mold spores.  If you sanitize equipment, then fill with wort, surviving spores may be present in the wort.   Hence iodophor the better choice. 

As to b) The thing that concerns me about effectiveness on other than spores is the evidence of mold growth in Star San solution.  It may be anecdotal,  but it's actually happened to me, so I'm convinced it's a real phenomenon which seems to require further investigation.  (OTOH, I have also read purely anecdotal reports of breweries experiencing unexpected loss of viability in yeast stored in brinks containing residual Star San.  Again I'd like to see more rigorous studies.)

I do use Star San in a spray bottle for quick use on fittings and such.  Just not as my primary sanitizer.  And again, iodophor is cheap.

And sorry to derail a simple thread about the risk associated with airlock suckback.   That's still negligible.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20809
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 08:42:08 PM »
Todd,

I apologize if the tone of my last post was inappropriately sarcastic.  Hadn't had my coffee yet.   As if that's an excuse.

When I said I'd "never heard the myth," I meant this specific argument, that somehow the culprits are necessarily presumed to be the surfactants and electric charges.  I'd never heard of this proposed explanation, taken up as the only one to be countered in the presentation.  This counterargument seems to miss the outstanding points that a) spores are still a potential problem and b) there's empirical evidence that Star San is not reliably effective against some organisms other than spores due to some mechanism, and if not the one disproved in this presentation, then there must be some other; so that this presentation,  while factual,  is not dispositive of the question of whether Star San is as effective as halogen based sanitizers in the brewery.

As to a) If you are concerned with possible infection in your brewery, the most common airborne source you need to be concerned about, that may escape acid sanitizers, is wild yeast (far more sporulant that domesticated) and mold spores.  If you sanitize equipment, then fill with wort, surviving spores may be present in the wort.   Hence iodophor the better choice. 

As to b) The thing that concerns me about effectiveness on other than spores is the evidence of mold growth in Star San solution.  It may be anecdotal,  but it's actually happened to me, so I'm convinced it's a real phenomenon which seems to require further investigation.  (OTOH, I have also read purely anecdotal reports of breweries experiencing unexpected loss of viability in yeast stored in brinks containing residual Star San.  Again I'd like to see more rigorous studies.)

I do use Star San in a spray bottle for quick use on fittings and such.  Just not as my primary sanitizer.  And again, iodophor is cheap.

And sorry to derail a simple thread about the risk associated with airlock suckback.   That's still negligible.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Interesting timing...I was just listening to an interview with him that's gonna be on the podcast tomorrow.  First, the guy knows a LOT more than we do.  PhD in microbiology and a professor.  Incredible experience and credential all around.  But I kinda agree with your point, too, especially given other research into the topic that I've read.  FWIW, I've also gone to Iodophor as my primary sanitizer with Star San a quick backup.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3744
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 08:59:57 PM »
I will be listening, Denny, thanks for the heads up!

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20809
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 09:25:37 PM »
I will be listening, Denny, thanks for the heads up!

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Just to let ya know, this topic isn't discussed.  But there's a lot of other fascinating yeast stuff!  And I don't recall if I've posted this, but it's more germane to the current discussion....

Broad-spectrum Germicides.

The term “Broad Spectrum” when applied to a sanitizer means that it will attack a wide variety of different types of microorganisms, including gram-positive bacteria (Listeria and Staphylococcus), gram negative bacteria (E. coli and Salmonella), viruses, fungi (both yeasts and molds), as well as many parasites. Broad-spectrum germicides act on microbial membranes, cellular enzymes, DNA, and protein. Iodine-based sanitizers have been used as antimicrobial agents since the 1800s and have a broad spectrum of activity They are a powerful sanitizer in strong acidic aqueous solutions. They are generally used at 12.5 to 25 ppm available iodine, and can cause staining on some surfaces, especially plastics.

 

Acid-anionic sanitizers are surface-active sanitizers, but negatively charged. Formulations include inorganic and organic acids plus a surfactant. Carboxylic acids (fatty acids) are some times incorporated as well. They are unaffected by hard water or organic soils. The dual function of acid is that it can be used for rinsing and sanitizing in one step. These sanitizers must be used at low pH. Activity above pH 3.5–4.0 is minimal. Acidity, detergency, stability, and noncorrosiveness makes them highly effective. Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds.

 

Iodophors are considered broad spectrum anti microbial vs. Star San being a being anti bacterial.  The actual label for Star San lists what it is registered to kill: E Coli and Staph A – the minimum baseline for allowing a claim of being a sanitizer with the EPA.  Iodophor has proven effectiveness against not only gram positive and negative bacteria, but yeast, mold, fungi and viruses and is also a sporicidal agent.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline KellerBrauer

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
  • Bottoms Up!
Re: Starsan and frementation
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 02:01:12 PM »
I will be listening, Denny, thanks for the heads up!

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Count me in as well!  After following this thread and doing some additional research on the side, I have developed a bit of a headache! :-\
All good things come to those who show patients and perseverance while maintaining a positive and progressive attitude. :-)