[BrewBama]

In the comments Suregork says. ”... that even though strains are closely related, they may still differ phenotypically (especially on the aroma side as you mention). The tree can still be useful for finding substitutes though, but should of course not be trusted blindly.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chino Brews]

Hey, nice work dmtaylor!

A couple pairs of strains that Kris equated but are not the same:

1187/WLP 005 -- Both are supposedly single-strain isolates from Ringwood. But Ringwood is a multi-strain culture and these are definitely not the same yeast.

1187's history is that Wyeast had 1187 Ringwood Ale and also 1742 Swedish Porter. 1742 was from the famed Carnegie Porter (Pripp's). Kris even says that in his chart. But then when Wyeast sequenced 1187 and 1742, it turned out they are the same, and Wyeast ended up discontinuing 1742. It's not surprising that the same strain ended up in Ringwood and in the Carnegie brewery, because yeast lending and trading was common in the British Isles, and the entrepreneur who owned Carnegie (David Carnegie) was back and forth between Scotland and Sweden.

If you read the yeast specs, it's clear that the performance specs are quire different. White Labs admits that WLP005 is adapted for conical fermentation. Meanwhile, 1187 is the yeast that brewpubs in the 1980s and 1990s loved for its legendary speed (fermentation kinetics and clearing) and expressive ale character, and it doesn't take much experimentation to realize it does in open fermentation and would likely do poorly in conicals.

1178/WLP028 - maybe this one is a bit closer call. Doubtless they both came from McEwan's. It just seems based on fermentation performance and flavor profile that for whatever reason, selection of individuals for the master culture, drift, or something else, these are nowhere near identical strains. 1178 is adapted to very cold fermentation, can ferment (slowly) at even lager fermentation temps (50-55°C), and from what I've heard it seems more closely adapted to what modern Scottish breweries are doing. WLP028, on the other hand, won't ferment as cool and is not as clean at any temperature. The other interesting thing is that 1178 is a great IPA yeast and plays well with hops, while WLP028 seems to diminish hop character (maybe due to flocculation characteristics). Anyway, this is a tougher call to claim the two strains are completely differentiated -- but they've certainly drifted apart quite a bit.

Anyway, I appreciate your keeping the chart up to day. Cheers!

[dmtaylor]

I might as well set this here, since someone on another forum asked for it.  Yes, I've been maintaining my list regularly, but hadn't published an updated version since January... until now I suppose. Here's the latest including what little I know about the newest studies just came out this month:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14zvCCukT0xiTN2sWtTNa3ptHlBaPstRa/view?usp=sharing

OR

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nwVema5Y8kuGbTR_vlz6gzU-KCngFYWjrAJO44xjwfA/edit?usp=sharing

(pick the Google version you prefer)

Primary references for the newest updates found here -- I believe we might have already had an AHA thread here on it as well, and if not, well now we do:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/interesting-genome-sequencing-of-some-yeasts.670056/

Interestingly, 1187 Ringwood is most likely a pastorianus strain.  Nobody saw that one coming!  And so is WLP029 Kolsch.  That one makes more sense.  And WLP838 lager might be a cerevisiae strain!?  Yikes.  etc.

My spreadsheet is compiled mainly for my own personal gratification. I don't blog, don't have a website, don't really care what people think of it. But if it can help anybody out, please enjoy and feel free to share.

Cheers all.

[Robert]

Thanks for keeping it updated, Dave!  I think you'll be kinda busy here in the next few months...

[goose]

Kudos, Dave!  You have done an immense amount of work to create this yeast chart.  Thank you for that!

[charlie]

Does anyone have info on Bells House Yeast? I have used it for a 2HA clone and (accidentally) for an SNPA clone. The 2HA clone turned out excellent, and I'll get a taste of the SNPA clone this evening.

The yeast is very flocculent, and the appearance of the starters (clumpy) and the yeast mud in the bottom of the fermentor leads me to believe its origin is English. Overall its behavior is much like WLP-007.

Charlie

[hopfenundmalz]

Bell's yeast is not Chico, as some claim. It ferments with a big krausen, produces an orange ester, and only goes to 11% ABV.
Those that have talked to Larry said his reply was that when he started there were only 3 or 4 yeasts out there, andbitbismone of them. My vote goes to an English strain, which one?

[hopfenundmalz]

Bell's yeast is not Chico, as some claim. It ferments with a big krausen, produces an orange ester, and only goes to 11% ABV.
Those that have talked to Larry said his reply was that when he started there were only 3 or 4 yeasts out there, andbitbismone of them. My vote goes to an English strain, which one?

Imperial has the Bell's house yeast, only sell it at the general store.

[dmtaylor]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

[Robert]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Similar in the big mess of fluff in the bottle as well.  I'd never have thought in that direction, but it is worth considering.   Whatever the origin, it has surely changed significantly in Bell's hands. 

[hopfenundmalz]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Was Cooper's available in the Homebrew trade in 1985? Or when Larry started his Homebrew shop?

I started in 1992, Cooper's was around then.

[Robert]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Was Cooper's available in the Homebrew trade in 1985? Or when Larry started his Homebrew shop?

I started in 1992, Cooper's was around then.

This suggests it's possible  https://coopers.com.au/diy-beer
Started exporting in '82

[hopfenundmalz]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Maybe it will go through genetic ID, the we know for sure what it is close to?

[dmtaylor]

My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Maybe it will go through genetic ID, the we know for sure what it is close to?

Not that I've been able to discern yet.  But of course anything's possible.

[charlie]

I googled it and found a post by 303 Brews on this forum that says; "I'm using the Inland Island Eccentric ale, which is the Bell's house strain.". Interesting!

My 2HA clone pulled an astonishing FG of 0.8 Plato (temperature corrected). That translates to 1.003 SG, and I have never come close to 1.003 before! The lowest I had previously seen was 1.005, and that only happens once in a blue moon.

The SNPA clone I used the yeast on only got down to 1.006. lol

Charlie