Author Topic: krausening oxidized beer  (Read 1107 times)

Offline denny

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 06:10:29 PM »


I was just reading through Chapter 6 of Freshness by Bamforth, and I noticed the following passage:

"I think the answer lies with yeast.  Yeast loves to reduce carbonyl substances.  If you take a beer with pronounced cardboard/wet paper character and treat it with a good virile yeast, the stale notes will be removed."

I assume he's talking about beer in process or he means krausening and doesn't specifically say it.  Otherwise, if you did it post fermentation, what would the yeast have to work on?

I wonder if even kräusening would be practical in this case.  How much yeast activity would be needed, so how much unfermented beer would need to be mixed in?  This could wreck the character of post fermentation,  fully matured, or packaged beer,  a case of "the operation was a success but we lost the patient."

Exactly
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Offline narcout

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 06:39:14 PM »
I was just reading through Chapter 6 of Freshness by Bamforth, and I noticed the following passage:

"I think the answer lies with yeast.  Yeast loves to reduce carbonyl substances.  If you take a beer with pronounced cardboard/wet paper character and treat it with a good virile yeast, the stale notes will be removed."

I assume he's talking about beer in process or he means krausening and doesn't specifically say it.  Otherwise, if you did it post fermentation, what would the yeast have to work on?

I really don't know (beer in process wouldn't yet be at the point where it has a cardboard/wet paper character would it?).

I'm going to read the rest of the book this week.  It's short but pretty dense.  And I believe he covers E-2-nonenal in greater detail in an earlier chapter.  I'll post back if I see anything on point.

One other tidbit I noticed in Chapter 3:

"If you take a stale beer and add enough sodium metabisulfite to it, then you can clean up the flavor.  This speaks to the fact that sodium metabisulfite binds carbonyl substances to produce so-called adducts, which no longer display the aged character."

The carbonyl group includes diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and E-2-nonenal.

I'm not saying the OP should do this or that to his beer; I just wanted to share a few things I came across that I think are interesting.

There's nothing left to dismantle; the house it just collapsed on itself.  - A. Savage

Offline denny

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 07:51:05 PM »
I really don't know (beer in process wouldn't yet be at the point where it has a cardboard/wet paper character would it?).

I'm going to read the rest of the book this week.  It's short but pretty dense.  And I believe he covers E-2-nonenal in greater detail in an earlier chapter.  I'll post back if I see anything on point.

One other tidbit I noticed in Chapter 3:

"If you take a stale beer and add enough sodium metabisulfite to it, then you can clean up the flavor.  This speaks to the fact that sodium metabisulfite binds carbonyl substances to produce so-called adducts, which no longer display the aged character."

The carbonyl group includes diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and E-2-nonenal.

I'm not saying the OP should do this or that to his beer; I just wanted to share a few things I came across that I think are interesting.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.  If it's still fermenting, how do you know it's oxidized?  And if it's done fermenting, what's the yeast gonna work on?  I thought in a long ago discussion we found that adding sulfite to a finished beer was not a good idea.
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 07:52:30 PM »
That is interesting


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Online Robert

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 07:54:46 PM »
I really don't know (beer in process wouldn't yet be at the point where it has a cardboard/wet paper character would it?).

I'm going to read the rest of the book this week.  It's short but pretty dense.  And I believe he covers E-2-nonenal in greater detail in an earlier chapter.  I'll post back if I see anything on point.

One other tidbit I noticed in Chapter 3:

"If you take a stale beer and add enough sodium metabisulfite to it, then you can clean up the flavor.  This speaks to the fact that sodium metabisulfite binds carbonyl substances to produce so-called adducts, which no longer display the aged character."

The carbonyl group includes diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and E-2-nonenal.

I'm not saying the OP should do this or that to his beer; I just wanted to share a few things I came across that I think are interesting.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.  If it's still fermenting, how do you know it's oxidized?  And if it's done fermenting, what's the yeast gonna work on?  I thought in a long ago discussion we found that adding sulfite to a finished beer was not a good idea.
Kunze says it is done to prevent or forestall oxidation in packaged beer.   But again as with kräusen, as a practical matter after the fact, I'd think the amount needed to reverse the problem would be its own fatal problem.
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Offline denny

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 08:08:30 PM »
I really don't know (beer in process wouldn't yet be at the point where it has a cardboard/wet paper character would it?).

I'm going to read the rest of the book this week.  It's short but pretty dense.  And I believe he covers E-2-nonenal in greater detail in an earlier chapter.  I'll post back if I see anything on point.

One other tidbit I noticed in Chapter 3:

"If you take a stale beer and add enough sodium metabisulfite to it, then you can clean up the flavor.  This speaks to the fact that sodium metabisulfite binds carbonyl substances to produce so-called adducts, which no longer display the aged character."

The carbonyl group includes diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and E-2-nonenal.

I'm not saying the OP should do this or that to his beer; I just wanted to share a few things I came across that I think are interesting.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.  If it's still fermenting, how do you know it's oxidized?  And if it's done fermenting, what's the yeast gonna work on?  I thought in a long ago discussion we found that adding sulfite to a finished beer was not a good idea.
Kunze says it is done to prevent or forestall oxidation in packaged beer.   But again as with kräusen, as a practical matter after the fact, I'd think the amount needed to reverse the problem would be its own fatal problem.

An example of "reality often astonishes theory"
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline narcout

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Re: krausening oxidized beer
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 09:40:29 PM »
I really don't know (beer in process wouldn't yet be at the point where it has a cardboard/wet paper character would it?).

I'm going to read the rest of the book this week.  It's short but pretty dense.  And I believe he covers E-2-nonenal in greater detail in an earlier chapter.  I'll post back if I see anything on point.

One other tidbit I noticed in Chapter 3:

"If you take a stale beer and add enough sodium metabisulfite to it, then you can clean up the flavor.  This speaks to the fact that sodium metabisulfite binds carbonyl substances to produce so-called adducts, which no longer display the aged character."

The carbonyl group includes diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and E-2-nonenal.

I'm not saying the OP should do this or that to his beer; I just wanted to share a few things I came across that I think are interesting.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.  If it's still fermenting, how do you know it's oxidized?  And if it's done fermenting, what's the yeast gonna work on?  I thought in a long ago discussion we found that adding sulfite to a finished beer was not a good idea.
Kunze says it is done to prevent or forestall oxidation in packaged beer.   But again as with kräusen, as a practical matter after the fact, I'd think the amount needed to reverse the problem would be its own fatal problem.

An example of "reality often astonishes theory"

It's possible; though it doesn't seem like any of us have actually tried either method, so how can we draw any conclusions? 

Regardless of whether it's practical (and ignoring the fact that it would be better to just avoid beer going stale in the first place), it would make for an interesting experiment, just to see if it works.
There's nothing left to dismantle; the house it just collapsed on itself.  - A. Savage