Author Topic: Iodophor age  (Read 1315 times)

Offline Craft Meister

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2019, 07:14:52 PM »

Other things that will degrade the solution:

-Residual alkaline detergents.  The Iodine complex and the Iodophor concentrate are acidic solutions.  Mixing into any water that has residual alkaline detergent will neutralize the solution.  I've run into people that have had issues running Iodophor through plate/counterflow chillers where there was residual alkaline detergent remaining in the system and it neutralizes the Iodophor solution.


Interesting. So if alkaline cleaners tend to neutralize iodophor solutions, it therefore suggests that highly alkaline water supplies might take a bit more of the concentrate than low alkalinity water such as rainwater, RO, or distilled? This also suggests that we can neutralize excess alkalinity in our water supply in order to make our iodophor solutions more effective.

If that's the case, the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water does make it easier to figure out what a brewer's acid dose needs to be in order to neutralize most or all the water supply's alkalinity.

Hey Marty, I have some information back from Dr. Landman for you on this topic regarding pH for mixing Iodophor solutions:

"Absolutely. pH 8.5-9 is considered aggressive toward iodophors and requires a higher dose of concentrate to achieve a 12.5-25ppm solution. Above pH 9, the water needs to be treated with a weak acid (typically citric acid) to buffer the diluent back to the 7-8 range before dosing with the iodine concentrate.

... the high pH on the alkaline side prevents the iodine atom from releasing off the organic carrier molecule. It is the release of the free iodine atom that forms the active form of iodine that kills bacteria, etc. It is called hypoiodous acid ... that and elemental iodine are bactericidal. Elemental iodine is hard to get into solution ... hard to dissolve. The hypoiodous acid dissolves easily into water.
The older, original dairy iodophors were formulated with a high percent of some acid ... phosphoric acid, Hydroxyacetic acid, etc.  ... to keep the pH low and help release the iodine."

Hope this helps!
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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2019, 07:30:14 PM »
That sounds just like the popular "recipe" for using bleach with sodium hypochlorite diluted to 80 ppm,  where it is said to be essential to acidify to pH 5.0 in order that the chlorine will be almost entirely in the form of hypclorous acid, that being the active killer.   These halogens all behave alike, it seems.

So, does this mean we should be checking the ph of our solution,  or does the color indicator have our backs?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:42:51 PM by Robert »
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Offline Craft Meister

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2019, 07:58:49 PM »
That sounds just like the popular "recipe" for using bleach with sodium hypochlorite diluted to 80 ppm,  where it is said to be essential to acidify to pH 5.0 in order that the chlorine will be almost entirely in the form of hypclorous acid, that being the active killer.   These halogens all behave alike, it seems.

So, does this mean we should be checking the ph of our solution,  or does the color indicator have our backs?

I don't think it's necessary to measure the pH of your water or Iodophor solution.  It's probably a better idea to understand the pH of your tap water or source of water for mixing the solution as I think it's very rare to have a municipal water source coming out at a pH higher than 8.5-9.  Using the regular guides of solution color and Iodine test strips will be an effective measuring tool, along with proper measurement of the BTF Iodophor concentrate.
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Offline BrewBama

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Iodophor age
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2019, 09:23:14 PM »
Thank you for coming here to address questions. As you can see there are many. Here are a cpl more:

To purge a keg of oxygen, many homebrewers remove the oxygen from a keg by filling it completely with *liquid* then remove the *liquid* with CO2.  Finally we replace the CO2 with beer via “closed transfer”.  Can the *liquid* be Iodophor or is the air drying step you described above absolutely required?

Once a vessel is sanitized by soaking for 2 minutes and allowed to air dry [inverted], in a home brewery (aka my laundry room), how long would you conservatively expect the [inverted] vessel to be considered “sanitized”?  What factors would you suggest to increase this conservative estimation?

I received this information from  an email:

“I'm familiar with this keg purging method, especially as suggested by Drew and Denny on Experimental Brewing.  Denny has conducted his own tests on purging kegs with an Iodophor solution and says to me that it works great.

It's kind of hard to put a length of time for how long something will stay sanitized.  The best advice would be to use that keg as soon as it's dry after sanitizing.  Typically what I do is to store my kegs clean, then upside down/inverted to dry, then sanitize right before use.  Bacteria and other bugs travel on airborne dust and particles, so the more time you leave a container open to the air, the more chance there is for contamination.”



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Offline narcout

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2019, 12:49:08 AM »
Thank you for coming here to address questions. As you can see there are many. Here are a cpl more:

To purge a keg of oxygen, many homebrewers remove the oxygen from a keg by filling it completely with *liquid* then remove the *liquid* with CO2.  Finally we replace the CO2 with beer via “closed transfer”.  Can the *liquid* be Iodophor or is the air drying step you described above absolutely required?

Once a vessel is sanitized by soaking for 2 minutes and allowed to air dry [inverted], in a home brewery (aka my laundry room), how long would you conservatively expect the [inverted] vessel to be considered “sanitized”?  What factors would you suggest to increase this conservative estimation?

I received this information from  an email:

“I'm familiar with this keg purging method, especially as suggested by Drew and Denny on Experimental Brewing.  Denny has conducted his own tests on purging kegs with an Iodophor solution and says to me that it works great.

It's kind of hard to put a length of time for how long something will stay sanitized.  The best advice would be to use that keg as soon as it's dry after sanitizing.  Typically what I do is to store my kegs clean, then upside down/inverted to dry, then sanitize right before use.  Bacteria and other bugs travel on airborne dust and particles, so the more time you leave a container open to the air, the more chance there is for contamination.”



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Do people let items dry after sanitizing?  In the 13 or 14 years I've been using Iodophor as a sanitizer, I have never (and I mean not once) waited for something to dry after I've sanitized it.

It also doesn't seem to jive with the "sanitize right before use" advice.

A purged and sanitized keg isn't going to dry unless you open it, which would kind of defeat the whole point.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2019, 01:11:19 AM »
I let it drain -- I don't, say, rack into a fermenter with a puddle of iodophor in the bottom -- but I try to use stuff while still "wet" as I figure that means it is still sanitized, as you say, narcout.  Even though it's "no rinse," I like a balance between adding as little solution as possible to my beer and waiting so long that I might need to sanitize again.  But...

On the other hand, maybe in an irrational contradiction,  I often sanitize my fermenter ahead of brewing and close it up still wet.  Does this carry a risk of something present on a speck of dust in the air inside contaminating my beer?  I figure the wort will be in contact with the air as the fermenter is filled no matter what.  Maybe should consider that with regard to saniting all equipment, so if it dries, the surface is only as prone to contamination from the the air as the wort itself is.  If a surface has been thoroughly cleaned and sanitized once, maybe we shouldn't worry too much.

Here's my general philosophy.  Cleaning is of primary importance,  sanitizing is just feel-good insurance.  Sanitizing is killing the stuff you left on a surface, cleaning is removing it in the first place.  Clean surfaces are the least possible source of infection.  The one thing we can't clean or sanitize is the air (unless you're brewing in a NASA clean room.) 
Rob Stein
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2019, 02:26:43 AM »
...
A purged and sanitized keg isn't going to dry unless you open it, which would kind of defeat the whole point.

Which is why I asked the questions while I had the opportunity.

I’ll continue to sanitize and purge and close transfer as I’ve been doing.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2019, 02:43:02 AM »


...
A purged and sanitized keg isn't going to dry unless you open it, which would kind of defeat the whole point.

Which is why I asked the questions while I had the opportunity.

I’ll continue to sanitize and purge and close transfer as I’ve been doing.


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Same here.  As I see it, that approach to closed fermentation, sani purging and closed transfer provides for a sanitary environment after we've pitched and closed up.  We just need to be sure there's nothing taking up residence in nooks and crannies or a biofilm in our cold side equipment.  That's more down to cleaning, including beer stone removal, than sanitizing. 
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Offline goose

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2019, 01:56:18 PM »


...
A purged and sanitized keg isn't going to dry unless you open it, which would kind of defeat the whole point.

Which is why I asked the questions while I had the opportunity.

I’ll continue to sanitize and purge and close transfer as I’ve been doing.


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Same here.  As I see it, that approach to closed fermentation, sani purging and closed transfer provides for a sanitary environment after we've pitched and closed up.  We just need to be sure there's nothing taking up residence in nooks and crannies or a biofilm in our cold side equipment.  That's more down to cleaning, including beer stone removal, than sanitizing.

+1

I can get just about all but maybe a ml or two of sanitizer out of the keg by rocking it around while continuing to blow in CO2 after the keg is emptied.  Obviously, if you shorten the dip tube, this will be harder to accomplish.   I do not open the keg and let it air dry as I agree it defeats the purpose of a closed system transfer.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2019, 02:36:22 PM »


...
A purged and sanitized keg isn't going to dry unless you open it, which would kind of defeat the whole point.

Which is why I asked the questions while I had the opportunity.

I’ll continue to sanitize and purge and close transfer as I’ve been doing.


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Same here.  As I see it, that approach to closed fermentation, sani purging and closed transfer provides for a sanitary environment after we've pitched and closed up.  We just need to be sure there's nothing taking up residence in nooks and crannies or a biofilm in our cold side equipment.  That's more down to cleaning, including beer stone removal, than sanitizing.

+1

I can get just about all but maybe a ml or two of sanitizer out of the keg by rocking it around while continuing to blow in CO2 after the keg is emptied.  Obviously, if you shorten the dip tube, this will be harder to accomplish.   I do not open the keg and let it air dry as I agree it defeats the purpose of a closed system transfer.
Goose, I have trimmed dip tubes, but I use this trick I picked up here on the forum.   I also have my gas tubes trimmed to be flush with the inside surface of the keg, or actually slightly recessed.   I blow out all the iodophor I can through the liquid side.   Then pressureize and invert the keg.  With the keg positioned so that the gas post is the lowest point,  pop on a gas QD and blow the remaining iodophor out.
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Offline Craft Meister

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2019, 09:48:14 PM »
The main reason we stress the air drying aspect for using the BTF Iodophor solution is that those instructions are stated specifically on our label.  With EPA regulated products, instructions, methods, and applications are strictly adhered to, especially for commercial use.

However, in real-world applications, air drying may not always be necessary.  The best reason for air drying is to eliminate the opportunity for small amounts of Iodine to get into your beverage.  The chances, when PROPERLY MEASURING an Iodophor solution of flavor impacts from residual Iodine, are slim to nil.

Here is an external link to a great document from an interview with Dr. Landman on BTF Iodophor:

https://www.bayareamashers.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Iodophor.pdf

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Offline jeffy

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2019, 10:26:15 PM »
Wow.  Five pages, an expert, a lot of discussion, but not a clear answer to my original question, unless I missed it.  If I measure the proper amount of iodophor into a five gallon keg, seal it, then push it out with CO2 into another keg, there will be no air drying involved.  I'm OK with having a small amount of dilute liquid under the dip tube and I feel that that first corny keg is sanitized and ready to fill with beer.
Now what if I leave the other keg full of sanitizer until the next time I have beer ready to keg?  It's in the dark without oxygen in the head space.  It may be a couple of weeks before I push out the solution with CO2 into another keg.
From what I have read here, the answer is that this probably works, but since it is so cheap, why am I doing it?  Because I have lots of kegs and it's nice to clean and sanitize them at one time.
This weekend I think I will pull out a sample from a keg with three week old iodophor and check for amber color.  Will that be as definitive as a test strip?
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2019, 02:00:40 AM »
The main reason we stress the air drying aspect for using the BTF Iodophor solution is that those instructions are stated specifically on our label.  With EPA regulated products, instructions, methods, and applications are strictly adhered to, especially for commercial use.


Air Dry?? I had to go into the brewery and take my bottle off the shelf and read the instructions, but it does say that. The REALLY troubling thing is: "Why did EPA require this?" or  "Why did National Chemicals agree to this requirement?"

I'm afraid that you've just opened a can of worms, but I'm still not about to begin air drying a piece of equipment and have it pick up mold spores. As far as I'm concerned, air drying would bring iodophor back to being no better than an acid-based sanitizer...ineffective against mold spores.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2019, 02:04:40 AM »
The main reason we stress the air drying aspect for using the BTF Iodophor solution is that those instructions are stated specifically on our label.  With EPA regulated products, instructions, methods, and applications are strictly adhered to, especially for commercial use.


Air Dry?? I had to go into the brewery and take my bottle off the shelf and read the instructions, but it does say that. The REALLY troubling thing is: "Why did EPA require this?" or  "Why did National Chemicals agree to this requirement?"

I'm afraid that you've just opened a can of worms, but I'm still not about to begin air drying a piece of equipment and have it pick up mold spores. As far as I'm concerned, air drying would bring iodophor back to being no better than an acid-based sanitizer...ineffective against mold spores.
+1

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Offline Robert

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Re: Iodophor age
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2019, 02:10:29 AM »
Wow.  Five pages, an expert, a lot of discussion, but not a clear answer to my original question, unless I missed it.  If I measure the proper amount of iodophor into a five gallon keg, seal it, then push it out with CO2 into another keg, there will be no air drying involved.  I'm OK with having a small amount of dilute liquid under the dip tube and I feel that that first corny keg is sanitized and ready to fill with beer.
Now what if I leave the other keg full of sanitizer until the next time I have beer ready to keg?  It's in the dark without oxygen in the head space.  It may be a couple of weeks before I push out the solution with CO2 into another keg.
From what I have read here, the answer is that this probably works, but since it is so cheap, why am I doing it?  Because I have lots of kegs and it's nice to clean and sanitize them at one time.
This weekend I think I will pull out a sample from a keg with three week old iodophor and check for amber color.  Will that be as definitive as a test strip?
Jeffy, something I don't quite get about your procedure.  If a little bit of iodophor is left in each keg, then from the second one on, they aren't completely filled to start.  You can surely invert the keg briefly to get full coverage.  But the headspace will be more and more as you go, which, it seems to me, means a little more air left unpurged each time -- which could affect not only the beer, but also the iodophor.  Am I missing something?

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