[BrewBama]

Not sure if you might be referring to the link name or not. If so, the articles are Brauwelt articles simply hosted on the Low Oxygen site. They don’t necessarily pertain to LODO techniques.

Nope; I saw the info in the links were general decoction, thanks. I was more touching on the comment Kramerog stated about oxygen and I wanted to nip that in the bud, so to speak, before this spun off into a LODO arguement. 

Good copy.


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[brian_welch]

I suppose you could effectively bypass the protein rest that way.  But I think you'll still be well advised to skip the low dough in.  Just use decoction as a fun twist on a Hochkurz.

Thanks. Yeah, I'd be HAPPY to avoid the extra step. Just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing some beneficial aspect/factor in doing so.

Randy Mosher in Radical Brewing  in the section on decoction says: “Don’t skip the 95F dough in if you are doing a mash with a large proportion of Munich or other lightly roasted malt. These malts have had some of the enzymes deactivated due to the heat used in kilning, although they still will convert themselves. Beta glucanase is the enzyme most sensitive to to destruction by heat. It operates at a very low temperature, below 100F. If you start your mash out at 122F or higher, you run the risk of not letting the small amount of glucanase enzymes left do their job of degrading beta glucans. When these gummy materials are present they turn your mash into the proverbial bowl full of jelly.” (P. 110)

[brian_welch]

but the one (somewhat recent) german lager reference i came across mentioned this 104°F step and I haven't been able to find reference to the practice anywhere else... hence this thread.

I can give you a good reference if you read German in the fancy old script and like 100-plus-year-old books... nothing newer will likely cover it. 

Radical Brewing is from 2004.

[Robert]

This (the idea that Munich malt requires a glucanase rest) may or may not have been true at one time, but it is not now.  Munich malts are fully modified and retain their full package of enzymes like paler malts.  Moreover, as has been mentioned above, glucanase rests are unnecessary with any fully modified, modern malt, and if they were, the same temperature would apply for any malt, Munich or otherwise.  What he says doesn't really make sense; it would never work in any mash doughed in at 122°F or above. 


A problem we come up against in trying to be true to tradition is that old practices were designed to suit the needs of the materials of the time.  We may think we'll get authentic results from following those practices, but they will give unsatisfactory results with modern materials.   Randy Mosher has summarized the old methods as detailed in old sources (possibly including Thausing, who I had in mind,) but you just can't get the sort of malt that was used then.  Really we're lucky we don't have to go to all the trouble.   I speak from some experience with trying old mash programs.   And honestly in the realm of brewing literature,  2004 is pretty outdated.    (But there is a lot of other good stuff in that book...)

[brian_welch]

Joe Stange’s recent article (https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/) about decoction mashing in Franconia states that less modified malt is still available and preferred in Franconia:

“Those malts are so gelöst.”

Stefan Zehendner, brewer of the highly esteemed Mönchsambacher Lagerbier, is talking about that modern, more-modified type of malt, processed and ready for infusion like tea.

Gelöst, incidentally, can mean deleted or erased. It also means dissolved, which is technically what happens to the internal grain structure as it’s modified during malting. “The malt is crisp or brittle,” he says. “The new kinds of malt are very thin. So they must make infusion with the new malts, and I think decoction is better.” Zehendner is suggesting that modern malts lack something. Do they make good beer? Of course. But cook them in a decoction mash—a process that adds qualities that specialty malts can only simulate—and they fold like a house of cards.

They lose the body and foam stability associated with a proper decoction mash and relatively less-modified malts.

Zehendner, for his lagers, uses 100 percent Pilsner malt from the Bamberger Mälzerei—the neighbor to Weyermann, less known internationally but perhaps more favored among local brewers. It is well-suited to decoction, and any doubters might want to ponder it over a glass of Mönchsambacher—deep burnished gold, with a fresh-sweet-malt center that can stand up to its ample bitterness, topped with typically lush white foam that stays through the end of the glass, leaving stripes of lace all the way down to mark each gulp you’ve taken.

[Robert]

Well now I want to get hold of that beer for sure.  But I'll be happy to stick with modern malt and a Hochkurz infusion,  call me lazy.  Just as well since I'm sure I can't get that under modified stuff.  That is some interesting insight into decoction's effects on modern malt.  Thanks, somehow I missed that article and this is the second reference to it I've seen just recently.  Got to go back and catch up if I can find it in my print copy (my decrepit old eyes hate trying to read their online edition.)

[brian_welch]

I’m heading over to Bamberg this summer and I’m hoping I can bring at least 15 pounds of it back to try out.

[hopfenundmalz]

I’m heading over to Bamberg this summer and I’m hoping I can bring at least 15 pounds of it back to try out.

They don't have a "fan shop" like Weyermann, so contact them before hand to see if you can arrange to get some. Mahr's uses their malt, so you might get some from there if you arrange it.