[Village Taphouse]

Guys:  I have seen a few things regarding this style that I wanted to bounce off of you.  Specifically, the idea that hops are typically not added to the boil after the 30-minute mark.  I have seen a number of people who follow this and say that hops are not added late in the boil and these are brewers who are heavy-duty into the style... they travel to the Czech Republic, brew a lot of Czech styles, special-order hops from Czech-based hop farms right when the hops are harvested, etc.  But of course I see a lot of homebrew recipes showing Saaz hops added right up to flameout.  Anyone care to comment?  I have one on tap at the moment where I used Saaz as a FWH and then again at 30.  Delicious beer but just wondering about this guideline.  Cheers & thanks.

Found a good article HERE which *does* say that hops are not added after 30 minutes but that's just one brewery.  Still... nice article. 

[Robert]

Traditionally (until well into the 20th century in many cases,) no lagers (or ales for that matter,) Czech, German or otherwise, had hops added even in the last 60 minutes.  (American brewers seem to have been early to the late-hop party.)  Yet the Bohemian beers had a reputation for fine hop aroma.   I've always assumed that two things are going on here.   One, as DeClerck says,  hop aroma is retained no matter when hops are added.  Two, perhaps prerequisite to the degree to which this assumption plays out in practice,  is the matter of kettle geometry.   On the homebrew scale, relative surface area will result in more rapid loss of volatile elements.   My conclusion:  as always, it's only the end result that matters.  Don't try to replicate the process, it's a red herring.  Just try to replicate the beer.  Whatever works for you.

[Village Taphouse]

I thought it was interesting too that the brewer in the story mentioned that they use carmel malt in the pilsner and that other Czech breweries use Munich malt.  This one I'm drinking now is 75/20/5 Pilsner/Munich 2/CaraHell, Saaz hops and 2782 Staro.  I like how it came out.  The lack of late hops makes the beer more drinkable for sure and this beer was spunded so the head will not quit.  I like the idea of using FWH in beers as I seem to get finer bitterness and overall hop character but the problem is that I'm never sure of the IBUs or actual bitterness I'm getting.  In this beer I used two ounces (2.4%) as a FWH and three ounces at 30.  The bitterness and hop presence is excellent.  Thanks for the reply. 

A pic of this beer...

[Robert]

FWH.   Preachin' to the choir, man.

[dls5492]

Annie Johnson did an excellent presentation on the Czech Pils at the 2017 Homebrew Con. I highly recommend that you check it out.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/czech-plz-what-i-learned-brewing-with-the-czech-masters/

[BrewBama]

Annie Johnson did an excellent presentation on the Czech Pils at the 2017 Homebrew Con. I highly recommend that you check it out.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/czech-plz-what-i-learned-brewing-with-the-czech-masters/

As an additional data point; Bob Hall and Randy Scorby presented on Czech Lagers in 2015 as well

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2015/2015%20AHA%20Czech%20Lagers%20-%20History,%20Brewing,%20Judging.pdf


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[Village Taphouse]

Guys, thanks for those links.  I will Czech them out. 

[Iliff Ave]

Annie's presentation says 4 hop additions and that's it. Anyone have more specific details?

[BrewBama]

She doesn’t discuss the boil at all. It seems to be all about mash and fermentation.  You might drop her a line and get her thoughts.

In this article https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-bohemian-pilsner/ JOSH WEIKERT uses four additions: 2 ounces (57 g) at 60 minutes, 2 ounces (57 g) at 30 minutes, 1 ounce (28 g) at 5 minutes, and 1 ounce (28 g) at flame-out

I have a Czech Premium Pale Lager (12°) in the fermenter now. In my effort I used a conglomeration of information.  But to keep from using so many hops in my beer I used .5 oz Magnum to replace the 60 and 30 min Saaz charges and focused the Saaz at 10 and 1 min: 10 IBU each.  Not authentic but I consider Magnum a fairly clean bittering hop so I am hoping it works.

[denny]

She doesn’t discuss the boil at all. It seems to be all about mash and fermentation.  You might drop her a line and get her thoughts.

In this article https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-bohemian-pilsner/ JOSH WEIKERT uses four additions: 2 ounces (57 g) at 60 minutes, 2 ounces (57 g) at 30 minutes, 1 ounce (28 g) at 5 minutes, and 1 ounce (28 g) at flame-out

I have a Czech Premium Pale Lager (12°) in the fermenter now. In my effort I used a conglomeration of information.  But to keep from using so many hops in my beer I used .5 oz Magnum to replace the 60 and 30 min Saaz charges and focused the Saaz at 10 and 1 min 10 IBU each.  Not authentic but I consider Magnum a fairly clean bittering hop so I am hoping it works.

Annie is a sweetheart and loves to answer questions for people.  She's working at CBC this week so it might take her some time to get to her emails and respond

[Village Taphouse]

The part about the late hops is interesting.  If you drink something like a German Pilsner, you get that late hop dryness (especially in something like a Jever).  But in the Czech Republic (and also the Slovak Republic), the beers don't have as much of that late hop character... they tend to slide down the throat a little easier which could also be because of the softer water.  There is firm bitterness in the Czech beers but the finish is a little smoother.  My wife and I were in Prague and also Brataslava and had Pilsner Urquell, Bernard, Gambrinus, Zlatny-Bazant, Staropramen and a number of others and they all seemed to be that way.  I don't necessarily want to duplicate anything exactly (I'm sure I couldn't anyway) but it would be nice to have a foundation for what these beers typically have in common.  I could see some modest hop addition with about 15 minutes left just to push the Saaz flavor and aroma a little bit more than what I'm getting in this beer but I wouldn't want to go too far.  Also, in this latest beer I used 25% distilled water to cut the sulfate so it's very smooth.  Cheers guys. 

[hopfenundmalz]

One point that came to mind, keep O2 exposure to a minimum on the cold side. Closed transfers will keep the aroma around longer.

If you drink a Jever and a PU side by side, the PU will have bitterness that does not linger, the Jever's dry bitterness goes on. That is the Sulfate in the Jever.

Robert's comment on replicate the beer is good. We don't have PU's malt, they malt their own. They have large copper kettles, and do decoctions. Just realized I haven't made one in years.

[Village Taphouse]

One point that came to mind, keep O2 exposure to a minimum on the cold side. Closed transfers will keep the aroma around longer.

If you drink a Jever and a PU side by side, the PU will have bitterness that does not linger, the Jever's dry bitterness goes on. That is the Sulfate in the Jever.

Robert's comment on replicate the beer is good. We don't have PU's malt, they malt their own. They have large copper kettles, and do decoctions. Just realized I haven't made one in years.

I am taking a lot of steps to keep O2 pickup at a minimum all throughout my process and that's been happening for about 18 months now.  My malt character is better and the color of the beers has been quite a bit more pale because of this.  I do realize that I can only get so close but I would like to use high-quality malts, fresh Saaz hops (my Czech Saaz hops came from Yakima Valley, not directly from a hop farm in the CR) and a good Czech yeast and then whatever process would get me as close as possible.  This idea about "no late hops" is interesting primarily because I had never heard it before.  If you search for Czech Pilsner recipes online you will see Saaz hops added all throughout the boil on many, many, many of them.  That could be someone's preference and it could also be someone who doesn't know the style very well.  Cheers & thanks.

[Robert]

The irony here, as we all are so oxygen conscious, is that a big (overlooked) contributor to the character of the traditional Czech beers is that they HSO the bejeezies out of them -- open grants, surface coolers, etc.  But I agree that cold side does have to be as tight as possible.

BTW I split my hops (whole cone) into two (usually equal) charges, FWH and 15 minutes.  I do this for virtually all my beers, but then virtually all I do is classic styles (no AIPA here,) so I'm looking for the same kind of effect as in a Czech lager in any traditional lager or ale.  This method gives me a clean but firm bitterness, not lingering unpleasantly, and a very pleasing, complex, elegant hop presence at all levels.  Similar to what it sounds like Village Taphouse is describing as a result of his FWH and 30.  I've tried later additions, but have not found them to make a significant or lasting contribution.   But again it's all down to what works in an individual brewer's process.

[Village Taphouse]

The irony here, as we all are so oxygen conscious, is that a big (overlooked) contributor to the character of the traditional Czech beers is that they HSO the bejeezies out of them -- open grants, surface coolers, etc.  But I agree that cold side does have to be as tight as possible.

BTW I split my hops (whole cone) into two (usually equal) charges, FWH and 15 minutes.  I do this for virtually all my beers, but then virtually all I do is classic styles (no AIPA here,) so I'm looking for the same kind of effect as in a Czech lager in any traditional lager or ale.  This method gives me a clean but firm bitterness, not lingering unpleasantly, and a very pleasing, complex, elegant hop presence at all levels.  Similar to what it sounds like Village Taphouse is describing as a result of his FWH and 30.  I've tried later additions, but have not found them to make a significant or lasting contribution.   But again it's all down to what works in an individual brewer's process.

I have heard that many European breweries are not low-oxygen brewhouses so I'm sure there is some character there that we would not get by being so careful about O2.  Another thing I noticed... I found 16oz cans of Pilsner Urquell in my area (Chicago) and bought some here and there.  They are loaded with diacetyl.  I don't remember that from being over there and drinking them fresh.  Many other brewers and beerheads I know mentioned tasting the diacetyl in these imported cans and it was quite surprising to me.  I don't think I'm overly sensitive to it but I would certainly want to avoid that in my own versions.