[blatz]

Hello all

Having some very slight astringency issues and trying to figure out how to resolve them.

I use all reverse osmosis water for brewing and fly/continuous sparge.

Would it be possible to just adjust my liquor with acid or lime to hit the intended mash pH and keep sparge water pH below 6 and then just add all flavor salts (CASO4 and CACL) just to the boil?

Wondering if that would be a cleaner way of nailing mash and sparge pH?

[yso191]

All I can say is what I do, and it works great.  I use 100% RO water.  I don’t sparge, and all the additions go in the mash tun prior to dough in.  After conversion, I drain the MT into the BK, and fire it up.

[Robert]

Strictly speaking, malt should provide all the calcium and magnesium the enzymes need in the mash, according to the literature.  The enzymes will be better protected and possibly more effective with more calcium.   But yes, you could do this.  Make sure your kettle additions provide enough calcium in the final, overall analysis to meet whatever your requirements for yeast health and clarification may be and you'll probably be fine.  If you try it, report.  You know, theory vs. practice and all.  FWIW my own practice follows the old, conventional  brewers rule of thumb.  Since about half the calcium initially present in the mash, from whatever source, is lost in the mashing process, add 2/3 of the total calcium bearing salts to the mash, 1/3 directly to the kettle to ensure enough calcium goes through to the fermenter.   Nothing in the sparge but acid as needed.  So there's certainly precedent for your line of thinking.  Nothing says your minerals have to be evenly distributed through all of your water.

[HopDen]

All I can say is what I do, and it works great.  I use 100% RO water.  I don’t sparge, and all the additions go in the mash tun prior to dough in.  After conversion, I drain the MT into the BK, and fire it up.

+1
The only difference here is that I do sparge with the RO water and I have not had any issues.

[Robert]

The real question is, is this even necessary,  or a red herring?   Blatz, how do you reckon salts in the mash are leading to astringency?  Calcium is only going to help lower your pH which reduces the risk of tannin extraction.  Not entirely sure what the issue is.  Or is it some other flavor effect that you're describing?   Or are you just having trouble with hitting your pH target and want fewer moving parts to your calculations?

[goose]

Strictly speaking, malt should provide all the calcium and magnesium the enzymes need in the mash, according to the literature.  The enzymes will be better protected and possibly more effective with more calcium.   But yes, you could do this.  Make sure your kettle additions provide enough calcium in the final, overall analysis to meet whatever your requirements for yeast health and clarification may be and you'll probably be fine.  If you try it, report.  You know, theory vs. practice and all.  FWIW my own practice follows the old, conventional  brewers rule of thumb.  Since about half the calcium initially present in the mash, from whatever source, is lost in the mashing process, add 2/3 of the total calcium bearing salts to the mash, 1/3 directly to the kettle to ensure enough calcium goes through to the fermenter.   Nothing in the sparge but acid as needed.  So there's certainly precedent for your line of thinking.  Nothing says your minerals have to be evenly distributed through all of your water.

I do something very similar to what Rob does.  I use all R.O. water and Martin's Bru'n Water calculator and calculate the amount of salts I need for the mash and add them to the MT before doughing in.  I then calculate the difference between the MT volume and the final pre-boil kettle volume, calculate the salt additions for that difference and add them to the BK to keep the water profile consistent and make sure there is enough calcium for yeast health. Nothing goes into the sparge liquor but phosphoric acid and I try to match the pH of the sparge liquor to the pH of the mash.  I know this is a bit anal retentive as you really need to make sure the sparge pH is less than 6 and let the buffering power of the mash keep it in line, but that's how I roll.

Just another idea.

[blatz]

The real question is, is this even necessary,  or a red herring?   Blatz, how do you reckon salts in the mash are leading to astringency?  Calcium is only going to help lower your pH which reduces the risk of tannin extraction.  Not entirely sure what the issue is.  Or is it some other flavor effect that you're describing?   Or are you just having trouble with hitting your pH target and want fewer moving parts to your calculations?

you are right, its probably not necessary.  what I am finding is that my malt and hop flavors lack 'brightness' and also the malt aroma is lacking, as is hop aroma on nondryhopped beers.   I have noticed a bit of a tannic bite in the finish.  I think what I need to do is acidify my sparge water down to 5.5  which I have never done since I always thought RO water didn't need it, but I didn't take into account that since I started adding my minerals to the HLT and not the grain, I was not really using "RO" anymore for sparging.  And I also need to measure preboil kettle pH.  I've never measured boil kettle pH nor made additions there before. 

I am now beginning to strongly wonder if that is what I have been missing.

does anyone know a ratio of gypsum or cacl to per gallon to lower pH by 0.1 and ratio of baking soda to raise pH by 0.1?   

[mabrungard]

Since good RO water will have very low alkalinity, I don’t bother acidifying it. The other consideration is that it’s only going to take a teeny amount of acid to drop pH.

[brewinhard]

I know that tannin extraction is mostly pH based, but have you taken a gravity reading on the very last runoff that you are collecting from your mashtun?  Perhaps you are dipping below the "accepted" gravity for extraction (1.010)? 

This exact issue is what led me to performing full no-sparge mashes years ago. Just a thought....

[Robert]

I know that tannin extraction is mostly pH based, but have you taken a gravity reading on the very last runoff that you are collecting from your mashtun?  Perhaps you are dipping below the "accepted" gravity for extraction (1.010)? 

This exact issue is what led me to performing full no-sparge mashes years ago. Just a thought....

That's a good point.  Under certain conditions thin last runnings can have an elevated pH.  But pH itself is definitely the thing to watch.  Just as temperature is not critical so long as pH is under control (some here on the forum have testified to having sparged at near boiling temperatures with no trouble,) I've found gravity may not be any different.   I do a continuous sparge, and my last runnings (which I rarely measure because I've consistently observed the following) tend to measure just about or just above 2°P, but with a properly established mash pH and no alkalinity in the sparge liquor, the buffering never allows pH to rise much above the value in the mash.  I expect  that with proper management of other parameters, Blatz can solve this without having to so fundamentally alter his process.  Perhaps in the interest of maintaining strong buffering throught the sparge, removing calcium from the mash and sparge might actually be counterproductive.   Just a thought, too.

[mabrungard]

I know that tannin extraction is mostly pH based, but have you taken a gravity reading on the very last runoff that you are collecting from your mashtun?  Perhaps you are dipping below the "accepted" gravity for extraction (1.010)? 

I am much less inclined to blame it on pH. In my experience, the final gravity of the runnings is the greatest factor. I try to stop before falling below 4 brix. In a way, that is like a batch sparge.

[blatz]

Per martins suggestion, I think this weekend I might try cutting the runoff at 4-5 brix and making up any shortfall in the kettle with RO.  Will have to plan for this by lowering my BHE a tad but that’s okay.  Will see how this leads me.  Unfortunately I will probably brew at least one other batch before I actually taste this one, so I guess it will get 2 trials.

Read on other posts that Martin of course does this and so does John Kimmich. 


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[goose]

I know that tannin extraction is mostly pH based, but have you taken a gravity reading on the very last runoff that you are collecting from your mashtun?  Perhaps you are dipping below the "accepted" gravity for extraction (1.010)? 

I am much less inclined to blame it on pH. In my experience, the final gravity of the runnings is the greatest factor. I try to stop before falling below 4 brix. In a way, that is like a batch sparge.

Something interesting that I have found is by increasing my liquor to grist ratio I can keep the end runnings pH  from getting too low.  This is obviously logical.  In my lighter beers the gravity has in some cases dropped to as low as 2 BX (1.008) which has not resulted in tannins being extracted.  By increasing the liquor/grist ratio to something like 1.5 quarts per pound from 1.33, the end runnings  won't drop as low and stay above 2.5 BC (1.010) which adds an additional factor of safety.

[blatz]

I know that tannin extraction is mostly pH based, but have you taken a gravity reading on the very last runoff that you are collecting from your mashtun?  Perhaps you are dipping below the "accepted" gravity for extraction (1.010)? 

I am much less inclined to blame it on pH. In my experience, the final gravity of the runnings is the greatest factor. I try to stop before falling below 4 brix. In a way, that is like a batch sparge.

Something interesting that I have found is by increasing my liquor to grist ratio I can keep the end runnings pH  from getting too low.  This is obviously logical.  In my lighter beers the gravity has in some cases dropped to as low as 2 BX (1.008) which has not resulted in tannins being extracted.  By increasing the liquor/grist ratio to something like 1.5 quarts per pound from 1.33, the end runnings  won't drop as low and stay above 2.5 BC (1.010) which adds an additional factor of safety.

interesting.  I thought of going this route too but am instead going to try being a little less efficient and use a richer wort.

next up if that doesn't resolve things might be batch sparging.

I can't quite go no sparge except for my smallest beers, and what I am going to try seems sort of like meeting in the middle.

I recall reading somewhere year back that Pilsner Urquell is mashed at an obscenely high water/grain ratio. 

[Robert]

Two things.  One, I just noticed your mention of PU, Blatz.  Yes, decoction mashes must be very thin to accommodate the process.   But the downside is that this also requires obscenely long boils to reduce all that volume.  I think we all know, thanks in large part to Martin, that we should be avoiding that.

More interestingly:  I just went back to read up on this and noticed that the current, standard textbooks (Kunze; Briggs, Boulton et al.) make no mention of pH in relation to extraction of silicates, lipids, etc., nor is there any mention of gravity except that Kunze mentions that last runnings typically show 2°P.  Both texts emphasize that what is important is the clarity of the runoff -- crystal clarity.  On a normal brew day, not bothering to measure pH and density through the sparge, the only thing I do observe is clarity, diverting runoff at the first sign of turbidity.  Maybe this is all that is important.