[SeanAY]

I'm certain this has been covered a million times in great detail, but I just tried my first lager on Sunday and I've seen so many conflicting opinions on temperature for pitching lager yeast.

I made a 2L starter with Imperial L13 the afternoon before brew day.  My wort chiller only got the wort down to 80 F so I put it in a chest freezer with temperature control, and waited several hours until the temperature of the wort dropped down to 70 degrees and pitched.  I turned the thermostat down to 60 F which it hit (and dropped below) sometime the next morning.  I then adjusted to 50 F.

There wasn't much action the next day, but by Tuesday the bubbling in the bucket was louder than the motor on the freezer, so I'm confident I've got something going.

That said, should I have any fears on pitching it so warm, and the temp dropping so rapidly?

[ynotbrusum]

Surprisingly, you are probably okay in terms of a drinkable lager with your approach:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/11/06/fermentation-temperature-pt-11-imperial-organic-l13-global-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

Next time get it a bit cooler - at least about 60.  I used to get mine below the initial desired fermentation temperature, but I spoke with a Seibel grad who said he starts his lagers at 60 and dials it back to 50-54 over the first 24 hours once he has evidence of the lag phase ending (bubbles in your airlock).

So you should be fine.  Prost!

[BrewBama]

I’ve done it pretty close to how you described.  I think you’ll be fine.

But now, I try to ensure the wort temp is at least within the temp range prescribed for the strain before pitching. Some say the OEM temp range is irrelevant but I believe the OEM has tested the strains before providing the recommendation so I try to comply.


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[denny]

Surprisingly, you are probably okay in terms of a drinkable lager with your approach:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/11/06/fermentation-temperature-pt-11-imperial-organic-l13-global-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

Next time get it a bit cooler - at least about 60.  I used to get mine below the initial desired fermentation temperature, but I spoke with a Seibel grad who said he starts his lagers at 60 and dials it back to 50-54 over the first 24 hours once he has evidence of the lag phase ending (bubbles in your airlock).

So you should be fine.  Prost!

Keep in mind that there is no distinct lag phase.  Accordi g to the Crabtree Effect fermentation (and therefor ester production) begins immediateky.

[Robert]

One fascinating insight I've had from doing warm pressure fermentation of lagers is that we've probably been misinformed regarding the importance of cool temperatures early on, and exactly where in the fermentation process ester production occurs.  We've been told that lagers need to be cold early on, and that it doesn't matter as much if temperature increases later,  because it's the early stages that determine ester levels.   But in pressure fermentation, as used even in German commercial practice, you are both starting and fermenting the lager at ale temperatures , and applying head pressure as late as 50% of the way to final attenuation in order to suppress ester formation.   So it would logically follow that, as either low temperature or high pressure may be employed to suppress ester formation,  and at least one of these can work when implemented later, not earlier,  in the process, the critical time for either measure must be after active  fermentation has commenced, not before.  So I conclude that it should be acceptable procedure to pitch lager yeast at a temperature at least up through the 60°'s Fahrenheit, and cool the fermenter through the lag phase and up to high kräusen.  Anecdotal evidence from many homebrewers supports this conclusion. Should I ever do a non-pressurized lager fermentation again, I would probably do this.  It gets your yeast pitched and your brew day wrapped up sooner, and should allow for more yeast growth at the warmer temperature during the lag phase, making up for any deficiency in your pitch rate. I suspect that while some factors for esters are produced during the lag and low kräusen stages, actual ester synthesis occurs later; after all, esters are made up of an alcohol and a fatty acid, so while the fatty acids may be present earlier, alcohols must be produced during fermentation, and maybe thereafter we can still regulate the process of ester formation. At least that's my emerging surmise, with the huge caveat that I'm an experienced brewer, but that's where most all of my knowledge of microbiology and the related chemistry comes from.  I would really like to hear from someone with actual formal knowledge regarding this matter.

[RC]

Accordi g to the Crabtree Effect fermentation (and therefor ester production) begins immediateky.

If the above were true, it follows that you should be able to pitch pitifully weak yeast and still have a normal fermentation. It wouldn't matter how much glycogen reserves the yeast have left because they'd be able to eat external sugars immediately upon pitching.

But of course this isn't the case. Yeast are weak when they've used up their glycogen reserves during storage and therefore don't have enough energy or carbon reserves left to do the requisite pre-fermentation metabolic stuff (i.e. assimilate wort O2, synthesize cell membrane and wall components, detect wort sugars, build sugar transporters). Sure, the phases grade into each other rather than have distinct boundaries, but I'd argue that there is a distinct (more or less) lag phase.

I've always pitched lager yeasts when both wort and starter at 66-70 degrees, and then I put my FVs in a chamber set to about 50. They've always turned out very clean, and many have won awards. Pitching cold is not at all necessary.

[denny]

Accordi g to the Crabtree Effect fermentation (and therefor ester production) begins immediateky.

If the above were true, it follows that you should be able to pitch pitifully weak yeast and still have a normal fermentation. It wouldn't matter how much glycogen reserves the yeast have left because they'd be able to eat external sugars immediately upon pitching.

But of course this isn't the case. Yeast are weak when they've used up their glycogen reserves during storage and therefore don't have enough energy or carbon reserves left to do the requisite pre-fermentation metabolic stuff (i.e. assimilate wort O2, synthesize cell membrane and wall components, detect wort sugars, build sugar transporters). Sure, the phases grade into each other rather than have distinct boundaries, but I'd argue that there is a distinct (more or less) lag phase.

I've always pitched lager yeasts when both wort and starter at 66-70 degrees, and then I put my FVs in a chamber set to about 50. They've always turned out very clean, and many have won awards. Pitching cold is not at all necessary.

No, that's a different issue.  The point is that fermentation starts, not the quality of fermentation.

[ynotbrusum]

I agree with you, Denny.  I was using the term from the Siebel grad and trying to put it in a context to which the OP could readily relate.  Clearly fermentation activities are not so distinct as to be separated by bright lines, rather they are gradients where a cell by cell analysis would place cells within a spectrum of activity levels.

[SeanAY]

This is all great insight - thanks to everyone for offering their input!  In the future I'm definitely going to try and push the temp down lower before pitching.  When I pitched at 70 F, it was because I was concerned about leaving the wort exposed (as it were) for too long.

Would you say it's acceptable, then, to chill the wort for the 8-10 hours needed to get it down to 50 F or so - assuming, of course, that sanitation is as it should be?

[Robert]

Would you say it's acceptable, then, to chill the wort for the 8-10 hours needed to get it down to 50 F or so - assuming, of course, that sanitation is as it should be?

That'll work too.  It's what I've always done in the past.  But the upshot of this thread seems to be that it doesn't really matter which way you go.

[BrewBama]

The Brülosophy guys did an ‘beersperiment’ that says yes, it’s OK to let your wort cool a few hours before pitching. You might want to check it out and see what you think.

However, other brewers believe wort will pick up oxygen and suffer if you don’t get the yeast pitched right away to consume the oxygen.  You could use oxygen scavenging techniques in an effort to help ward off oxidation while it cools.

Some even let the wort sit to settle while it’s cooling, then rack it to a fermenter to reduce trub in the fermenter. Only then do they pitch the yeast.

I have done exactly what you’re describing. I rarely get the wort cooled to pitching temp straight out of the brew kettle. I place it in the fermenter fridge for a few hours while my SnS starter is getting to high krausen.  By the few hours it takes for the starter, the wort is usually within temp range. I drink what I brew and I am happy with my beer so I’ll continue the process.


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[denny]

Would you say it's acceptable, then, to chill the wort for the 8-10 hours needed to get it down to 50 F or so - assuming, of course, that sanitation is as it should be?

That'll work too.  It's what I've always done in the past.  But the upshot of this thread seems to be that it doesn't really matter which way you go.

I think that's an over generalization...I should know, I do enough of it!  I'd say it MAY not matter, depending on the temp, the beer style, the yeast strain and your personal preferences.