Author Topic: This has gone far enough!  (Read 3308 times)

Online Robert

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2019, 03:56:20 AM »
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.
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Offline Phil_M

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2019, 01:09:40 PM »
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.
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Offline kgs

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2019, 02:54:58 PM »
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.

So, where I work we have a great makerspace which has many positive outcomes for its primary users (university students and faculty). First, I do see what I call "makerhate" among some folks. Well, some people don't like anything, particularly if they didn't invent it. But, more to the emerging maker thread, there was an early meeting of makerspace doers, supporters, proponents, etc. and I think 3/4 of the people attending that meeting were homebrewers!
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Offline denny

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #138 on: July 14, 2019, 03:50:32 PM »
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.

So, where I work we have a great makerspace which has many positive outcomes for its primary users (university students and faculty). First, I do see what I call "makerhate" among some folks. Well, some people don't like anything, particularly if they didn't invent it. But, more to the emerging maker thread, there was an early meeting of makerspace doers, supporters, proponents, etc. and I think 3/4 of the people attending that meeting were homebrewers!

Makers are a huge part of the homebrew culture.  The AHA is aware of that and has been targeting maker faire.  It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #139 on: July 14, 2019, 04:09:05 PM »
What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

I find it odd that the AHA seems to be pushing new membership a lot less than it has in past years which probably does not help the issue. I remember a few years ago the AHA did a lot of giveaways for new memberships/renewals and felt like I saw advertisements all over for membership but now not so much. I don't know if there was a low ROI on those efforts or what motivated that to change.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2019, 02:23:13 AM »
What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

I find it odd that the AHA seems to be pushing new membership a lot less than it has in past years which probably does not help the issue. I remember a few years ago the AHA did a lot of giveaways for new memberships/renewals and felt like I saw advertisements all over for membership but now not so much. I don't know if there was a low ROI on those efforts or what motivated that to change.

At HomebrewCon there was a discussion of what will be coming. Stay tuned.
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Offline Bilsch

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2019, 02:51:37 AM »
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2019, 12:50:43 PM »
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.

Offline Big Monk

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2019, 01:49:30 PM »
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.

I think Bilsch was referring to the concept that nothing could be simpler than simply going to the store and buying beer. I don't think it was an indictment of one's personal motivations for complexity in brewing.

 ;)
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Offline Bilsch

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2019, 05:02:43 AM »
Indeed. IMO anything beyond a Mr. Beer kit and it ceases to be simple anymore.

Online Robert

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2019, 11:22:18 AM »
OTOH Denny's principle of "make the best beer possible... doing the least work possible,"  doing everything necessary but nothing without a good reason, is not by any stretch reducing the process to "mere" homebrewing.  It's optimization of process.  It ought to apply to professionals as well.  One would think that no mega brewer would stay in business very long taking unnecessary steps.  (But then AB can somehow afford to kräusen; maybe it really serves a necessary purpose.)  Likewise one would think no craft brewer would survive very long lazily cutting too many corners.  (But then....)
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Offline denny

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2019, 02:23:47 PM »
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.

Old AHA slogan....."It's not rocket science unless you want it to be".
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2019, 02:24:33 PM »
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

Not at all...it's experienced brewers who are most in need of the concept.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2019, 02:36:16 PM »
Brewing itself, even at its most heady and scientific, is simple.

Maybe we don’t want to conflate simplicity with difficulty but rather relate simplicity to to saving time. The reason I can’t brew much (or at all mostly) anymore is the time it takes and not the difficulty.

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
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Offline denny

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Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2019, 02:49:06 PM »
Brewing itself, even at its most heady and scientific, is simple.

Maybe we don’t want to conflate simplicity with difficulty but rather relate simplicity to to saving time. The reason I can’t brew much (or at all mostly) anymore is the time it takes and not the difficulty.

That's very much true.  If you embrace simplicity by cutting out the unnecessary,  it will save you time.

One thing that's getting overlooked is that simplicity is a personal decision.  A Sabco BrewMagic might be simp,e for one person, while a cooler system might be simple for another. The simplicity concept is about identifying what works for you.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell