Author Topic: This has gone far enough!  (Read 3293 times)

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3667
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2019, 04:24:14 PM »


I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My main point exactly.


Well then.  Amen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed. Brew with toad sweat if you like so long as the beer is well made.

Then we are all in violent agreement, as the OP quoted a professor emeritus: "'I personally am not a fan of ridiculous brews incorporating materials and gimmicks that have no historical provenance in brewing,' said Charlie Bamforth, a distinguished professor emeritus in the food science and technology department of the University of California, Davis." The Forum consensus seems to be, it's all about the quality of the brew.

Yes, I originally chose the title of this topic not as a declaration, but as a characterization of what Prof Bamforth was saying, hoping to open up a discussion.  It worked, I guess.  I was just thinking last night that we seem to have come to a consensus around a more balanced refinement of his view:  Bamforth seems to think that novel ingredients, by their very existence, are ruining beer.  The forum seems to feel that these ingredients at most can enable the ruination of beer by providing cover, masking the shortcomings of poor brewers, and maybe by providing distractions that make it harder for consumers to learn to distinguish good from poor beer.  We seem to have a wise crowd around here.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2019, 04:33:28 PM »
I see it more like this...

Bamforth seems to think that SOME novel ingredients, by their very existence, are ruining beer.  And his opinion is as valid as those to the contrary.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online BrewBama

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2471
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2019, 02:48:26 PM »

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer :)

Sadly, if one can take a closer introspective look, there’s an underlying truth in this ^^^.   AHA leadership might want to take a step back, take a breath, and take notice: Risking ridicule, you have a long-time member willing to voice an issue with the current state of affairs. If one member has the gumption to confront the issue openly, how many others are thinking the same thing and simply not saying anything ...but voting with their feet. Versus becoming defensive, maybe an alternate solution should be investigated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2019, 04:08:48 PM »
So, it seems like in order to keep the peace people shouldn't post contrary opinions?  Aren't we all allowed to have our own views?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online BrewBama

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2471
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2019, 04:32:56 PM »
Quite the contrary. I believe he is saying allow contrary opinions and respectful differences without being shut down. Maybe I misunderstood him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline Big Monk

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • I’m Derek Scott. I’m a Category 26 kind of guy.
    • Low Oxygen Brewing
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2019, 05:33:45 PM »

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer :)

Sadly, if one can take a closer introspective look, there’s an underlying truth in this ^^^.   AHA leadership might want to take a step back, take a breath, and take notice: Risking ridicule, you have a long-time member willing to voice an issue with the current state of affairs. If one member has the gumption to confront the issue openly, how many others are thinking the same thing and simply not saying anything ...but voting with their feet. Versus becoming defensive, maybe an alternate solution should be investigated.

Keep a few things in mind:

1.) Charlie Bamforth isn't involved with the AHA Forum, i.e. don't make the leap that posting and discussing something Bamforth said here has the 100% backing of the AHA forum mods/admin or the AHA itself;

2.) This is "The Pub", meaning it's the exact place to discuss something unrelated to the brewing of beer but brewing industry, etc. related;

3.) "The Pub" should be a place where even the admin/mods can voice their opinion on something, particularly when it wasn't them starting the thread in the first place.

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

thcipriani seems to have gone on a rant directed at the wrong people. Why does what Bamforth thinks have anything to do with the AHA or the AHA Forum? Why, in "The Pub", should anyone, even mods/admins, not be allowed to agree with him if they want to?

« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 05:35:30 PM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2019, 08:30:28 PM »
Excellent points, Derek, and I for one am in complete agreement.   I made the original post to stimulate discussion and nothing more.  For people to think that anything I post is an endorsement by the AHA is wrong.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online BrewBama

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2471
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2019, 09:52:30 PM »
 I think some of the issues he presented could be accurate regardless of where he posted them and how they were presented. I believe the deeper issue has nothing to do with Bamforth’s lack of connection with the AHA or who the originator of the thread was.  He didn’t even mention those things. His ‘rant’ may be a symptom of a deeper more concerning illness.

He listed issues such as lack of inclusiveness, shutting down dissenting opinions, loss of technical expertise, etc. Who knows, this long time member may have hit the nail on the head.

DMTaylor may have it right when he said this place is dying.  I’m saying maybe the leadership should take notice, discover why, then do something about it. Status quo may be a death spiral.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2019, 10:16:59 PM »
I think some of the issues he presented could be accurate regardless of where he posted them and how they were presented. I believe the deeper issue has nothing to do with Bamforth’s lack of connection with the AHA or who the originator of the thread was.  He didn’t even mention those things. His ‘rant’ may be a symptom of a deeper more concerning illness.

He listed issues such as lack of inclusiveness, shutting down dissenting opinions, loss of technical expertise, etc. Who knows, this long time member may have hit the nail on the head.

DMTaylor may have it right when he said this place is dying.  I’m saying maybe the leadership should take notice, discover why, then do something about it. Status quo may be a death spiral.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Keep in mind that he's not the only long term member, or even the longest one, here.  Not that I understand what that really has to do with it. 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Online BrewBama

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2471
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2019, 10:28:18 PM »
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2019, 11:02:14 PM »
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Robert

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3667
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2019, 11:17:43 PM »
One difficulty with inclusiveness and sensitivity to the sensibilities of others in the sense addressed here is that it in fact can tend to engender the opposite.  Some in this thread were perceived as expressing views that another member for some reason finds personally objectionable.  Should they not be included?  Or is inclusion extended only to the inoffensive as defined by those who now become de facto gatekeepers in their interpretation and administration of rules of etiquette?

And as Big Monk rightly pointed out, this thread is in The Pub, and should be taken in that context.

But even in the broader context, this entire space is a forum, by definition a venue for presenting and discussing divergent viewpoints.  When we self-censor for fear of contradicting someone else's viewpoint, we cease to have any useful function. 

A corollary of this is that we all must be somewhat steeled against the possibility of being confronted by objectionable viewpoints.

It was the emergence of an atmosphere such as is apparently considered welcoming in this context that drove me to abandon an academic career long ago.  When disputes as to even matters of fact, let alone opinions or values, are taken as personal affronts, and therefore no situatuon which may potentially give rise to such conflicts is permissible, then the hope of any rigorous, objective intellectual pursuit -- of anyone learning anything they didn't already presume to know -- is forlorn.  The logical endpoint is a forum with exactly one participant.

Malice is unacceptable.   Discomfort is unavoidable.  So we learn and grow.

If we truly want to see this forum, and the broader organization, established as the one, universal, inclusive, go-to source for all things homebrew, we will have to accept that people with interests, priorities and sensibilities so divergent that most of us may appear ridiculous to everyone else must coexist, shrug it off, and focus on whatever brought us here.
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

Online BrewBama

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2471
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2019, 11:47:41 PM »
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.

Absolutely. I look forward to it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline Big Monk

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • I’m Derek Scott. I’m a Category 26 kind of guy.
    • Low Oxygen Brewing
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2019, 12:06:26 AM »
As far as being inclusive goes, I am not always on the best terms with this forum, but it seems to welcome me back with no issues, even if I disagree with people here and they with me.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:08:03 AM by Big Monk »
“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle
"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur
Check out The Brewing Troubleshooters at https://brewingtroubleshooter.yolasite.com/

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20740
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2019, 02:11:20 PM »
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.

Absolutely. I look forward to it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks.  Basically, what I was gonna say was said much more eloquently in Rob' s post. 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell