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Author Topic: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?  (Read 2969 times)

Offline Buddylee000

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Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« on: June 20, 2019, 07:27:28 pm »
I use distilled water and build up from there. I recently did a Vienna and a dunkle weissbier that had very little backbone almost tasted watery. I used 6g Calcium Chloride and 4g Gypsum in 10 gallons of water for each beer. Mash pH for both were in the 5.3 and 5.4 range.

After the fact I would add a touch of baking soda to my pint glass and I could definitely tell the difference. I'm hesitant to add any bicarbonate to the mash since it would raise mash pH higher than I want. Is this change in body coming from the bicarbonates or just an increase in the mineral content in the beer? 

Offline Robert

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 08:43:30 pm »
If 5.3-5.4 is pH at mash temperature, it's in the right range.  If that's a room temperature sample's pH,  then it's low, and could account for the problems you find in the beer, IME.  A bit more alkalinity in the water could bring your mash pH up to the more appropriate range, approaching 5.6 (room temperature,) which could help improve body and flavor, as well as extract and more.

As for what you're experiencing adding it to the glass, I'm not so sure.  You might try searching the forum for posts on this by dmtaylor.  I recall he has some considerable experience in correcting dark beers after the fact with bicarbonate.
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Offline Buddylee000

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 08:57:05 pm »
This is a room temperature reading. I thought all pH readings were done at room temperature?

Offline Robert

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 09:11:50 pm »
If 5.3-5.4 is pH at mash temperature, it's in the right range.  If that's a room temperature sample's pH,  then it's low, and could account for the problems you find in the beer, IME. 

This is a room temperature reading. I thought all pH readings were done at room temperature?

Yes, measurements are normally taken at room temperature.  But there's been a lot of confusion in homebrew (and even professional) circles because some texts cite the corrected temperature and some the "raw" number. (This has nothing to do with the effects on pH meters that ATC compensates for.  There is an actual displacement of mash pH with temperature variation due to additional dissociation of hydrogen ions with increased temperature.)  The target is 5.3-5.4 at mash temperature according to settled brewing science.  That will be ~5.6 at room temperature.  Try aiming a little higher and see if you like the results.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 09:22:20 pm by Robert »
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Offline Buddylee000

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 09:22:35 pm »
Did this just come about recently? The most recent book I have is Palmer's latest revised book in 2017 and it talks in there about room temperature pH being the correct way to measure.

Offline Robert

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 09:34:34 pm »
It's the correct way to measure, because if you're not at room temperature you'll wreck a pH probe in no time. (Originally it was the standard because pH was measured using reagents that worked at room temperature.) The understanding of pH optima in mashing has been settled for the better part of a century.  But the confusion in homebrew literature is ongoing.  Textbooks like Briggs, Boulton et al. and Kunze cover this in detail, and for a good overview here's a good paper:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z7JgeI7wCD7uHJEFpoUfo95ofqWgP0bY/view?usp=drivesdk
Rob Stein
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Offline Buddylee000

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 09:42:42 pm »
I understand why you measure at room temperature and that is to protect the probe. Just so I understand what you are saying, you should have a room temp pH of 5.5-5.7 for pale beers?

Offline Robert

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 10:06:27 pm »


I understand why you measure at room temperature and that is to protect the probe. Just so I understand what you are saying, you should have a room temp pH of 5.5-5.7 for pale beers?

That's the range for all beers really, not just pale. 
Rob Stein
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Offline Buddylee000

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 11:35:03 pm »
Thanks Robert,

I do believe after doing some more reading this is definitely the problem. This would explain my slightly lower efficiency as well.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 01:07:44 am by Buddylee000 »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2019, 07:16:30 am »
That low pH can manifest in thinness and with darker beers, in lighter color, at least in my experience.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2019, 06:20:30 pm »
That low pH can manifest in thinness and with darker beers, in lighter color, at least in my experience.

That’s my experience also. An overly low pH enhances the proteolysis of the wort and that reduces body. So adding bicarbonate to avoid that condition is a good idea. But I don’t think that adding bicarbonate to a normal wort or beer would not benefit in the same manner.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2019, 10:18:27 pm »
I currently aim for mash temp pH of 5.2 which corrects to a room temp pH of 5.45 (add 0.25).  Dark beers will typically fall below these numbers and thus should be adjusted upwards.  I just picked up some picking lime (calcium hydroxide) which I think will have a more neutral impact on taste since calcium is so plentiful in beer anyway while avoiding saltiness from excessive sodium that you could get from baking soda.  So for any adjustments for taste or pH going forward I may be using just pickling lime.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 10:20:41 pm by dmtaylor »
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2019, 04:51:33 am »
I've targeted a nominal room temperature measured mash pH of 5.4 for some time now, but this thread has me thinking of bumping this up to 5.5 or perhaps even 5.55 in order to see if a higher mash pH improves a general thinness that I've been experiencing.  To date I have not been adjusting kettle pH, but if I set my mash pH target to 5.55, I believe I will have to start adding some quantity of acid to the kettle. 

Perhaps I will calculate both the acid required to mash at pH 5.4 and 5.55, then shoot for 5.55 pH in the mash and add the difference between the two calculated acid additions to the kettle just before initiating the boil.  Any thoughts on the appropriateness of this approach?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 04:56:36 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Robert

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2019, 05:38:32 am »
I've targeted a nominal room temperature measured mash pH of 5.4 for some time now, but this thread has me thinking of bumping this up to 5.5 or perhaps even 5.55 in order to see if a higher mash pH improves a general thinness that I've been experiencing.  To date I have not been adjusting kettle pH, but if I set my mash pH target to 5.55, I believe I will have to start adding some quantity of acid to the kettle. 

Perhaps I will calculate both the acid required to mash at pH 5.4 and 5.55, then shoot for 5.55 pH in the mash and add the difference between the two calculated acid additions to the kettle just before initiating the boil.  Any thoughts on the appropriateness of this approach?

I target room temperature pH of 5.55-5.6 with significant improvement in extract and wort quality over when I went for 5.4ish.  I do adjust kettle pH at 10 minutes to end of boil to 5.0-5.1 (making the adjustment taking into account that the wort will drop by ~2.0 on its own in the course of the boil.)  I've tried the method you suggest and not had great success, for reasons I'll speculate on below.  I've been calculating the kettle acid addition assuming (based on something I read attributed to Kolbach) that to shift wort pH requires 34.25 mEq/kg*pH based on the weight of malt in the mash.  This may differ from the buffering of the grain bill I assume in calculating mash pH itself, but has been pretty much spot on for kettle acidification.  It appears  to me that wort has a fixed buffering capacity of its own independent of the mash and may be a bit more difficult to shift.  Let me know if you try this how it works for you.

EDIT:   One more complication to my method, which also no doubt contributes to why the difference between two calculated mash additions is insufficient to fully lower kettle pH to the target.  I use lactic acid 88%, and have learned that at the pH range of say 5.0-5.6 it is only partially dissociated, and so you need to assume it provides only 11.0 mEq/mL, not the 11.8 that we rightly assume for mash calculations.  Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 07:43:17 am by Robert »
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Offline goose

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Re: Does adding bicarbonate to water add body to beer?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2019, 07:27:34 am »
Rob, you also got me thinking about mash pH a bit more and that maybe I too should consider raising the mash pH a bit more to what you suggest 5.55-5.6.

I normally don't quite get my wort cooled to room temp when I do my measurements, if I get to around 80-90 degrees F. I feel that is close enough and safe enough so I can prolong the life of my probe (Milwaukee SM-102 pH meter with ATC to 70 degrees C).

Some of my last several batches were:
Wee Heavy:  5.20  Beer is nice and chewy (took gold at recent competition in Akron, OH)
Amarillo IPA:  5.30  It's an IPA so it doesn't need tons of body (took a gold at the Ohio State Fair)
Tripel:  5.58.  Although a test batch, tastes good and has nice medium body for the style  (kegging today)
Rye Porter: 5.26  Body is OK but could be a bit bigger in mouthfeel, but not bad.

Based on the observations with the tripel  I am going to try to shoot for a higher mash pH for the heavier beers (IPA is OK as it is).  FYI, all but Wee Heavy were boiled for 60 minutes.  The Wee Heavy was boiled for 2 hours to get more kettle caramelization.  Will post any additional observations from my end.

Shameless plug. For those of you going to Homebrew Con, I will have the Wee Heavy at club nite at the Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ) booth.
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