[KCguy]

planning to brew the Saq kit (its a Westy 12 clone) tomorrow and not sure how much yeast I should pitch. 5 gallon batch, OG 1.090. I have 3 packs of wlp530, all three manufactured back in Jan 2019. Mr Malty says the viability is around 10%, so I would need 11 packs with a starter on a stir plate. Obviously, Im not doing that, but curious what everyone thinks or if anyone has had experience pitching older WLP yeast?

I began the starter with one pack, then this morning, concerned I would be underpitching due to the age of the packs, I added a second. Should I add a third?

[mainebrewer]

You can play around with the slider bars in Mr Malty to see how much starter wort you'd need to get to your target if you used 3 packs of this yeast.

[dmtaylor]

Two packs in a starter should be good enough.  Yeah... not eleven, lol!!

[KCguy]

Next morning,  the starter looked dull and brown, lifeless; not the usual vibrant creamy yellow...so I added the third 530 pack, hours later no change.   Then I added a 510, slightly younger, and it picked up better color, hopefully manifesting healthy cells.  Also smacked a wyeast pack as additional insurance.  Brewing later tomorrow...

[rburrelli]

Next morning,  the starter looked dull and brown, lifeless; not the usual vibrant creamy yellow...so I added the third 530 pack, hours later no change.   Then I added a 510, slightly younger, and it picked up better color, hopefully manifesting healthy cells.  Also smacked a wyeast pack as additional insurance.  Brewing later tomorrow...

If you are just adding more yeast to the same starter then you won’t see any activity. You need to add more wort for it to feed on. Do you know how to do stepped starters?

[KCguy]

Never heard of stepped starters....but if the first yeast added to the fresh starter was dead, wouldnt the wort be untouched? 

[coolman26]

Never heard of stepped starters....but if the first yeast added to the fresh starter was dead, wouldnt the wort be untouched?

I’m sure it wasn’t dead, just sluggish. When I’m dealing with older yeast, I work about 4-5days before. Some yeasts rebound faster than others. By the way, I wouldn’t consider Jan19 old. I would start with a small quantity of 1.020 to wake it up. “Step” it up once you see activity with 1.030 wort. Stepped is exactly that, multiple wort additions to build your count.


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[KCguy]

Well, hell....is there any way to know how many cells I have now in the flask?  3 packs of Jan wlp530 and one pack of Jan wlp510 (bastogne belgium)...2000ml RO water combined with 6 tbsp DME and 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient, on a stir plate for 3 days now...

[coolman26]

My guess is your yeast was around 25% viable vs 10%. By my calculation your starter gravity was around 1.022. This is probably good for waking up your yeast. You will have plenty of yeast for your batch. I personally would pitch that entire starter into your beer. I wouldn’t try to decant the starter. IMO your in good shape with these 4 packs. I will guess you started w about 100b cells with 4 packs, just a guess.
Next time give yourself a little more time. Use your same process to wake up your older yeast. Then I would pop it in the fridge covered, then decant the liquid off the settled yeast. Then add another liter of 1.035 wort and pitch at high krausen. Good luck with your brewing.


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[KCguy]

Thanks coolman, will do next time.  Decanting sounds like a good method to have in my arsenal...usually just dump my whole starter in...

Brewed yesterday, into the evening, and this morning as of 5am, it was bubbling away happily.  Temp sitting at 68, which is also ambient room temp.  Kit mentioned letting it rise naturally to 82F, but it doesnt look like it wants to yet, (Ive had batches that skyrocketed to 75 by the next morning) and Im guessing its the weakness of my pitch causing that temp lag.  Will see what it does rest of the day, then turn on the heating pad I guess...

[coolman26]

Myself, I wouldn’t try to heat it. The yeast will get you there at ambient. I would let it go at ambient until it finishes. I generally pitch my Belgian yeast beers at 66 and hold it there for the first 48hrs and then let it free rise. The yeast energy then runs it to about 75. I’m usually working with older yeasts. Next time just start with a packet of yeast and start small and weak. Let it get moving and step it up. I really like to use yeastcalc dot com. That calculator hasn’t failed me yet.


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[KCguy]

Admittedly hesitant to turn on the heating pad, but the kit was quite specific about it.  And Ive never brewed anything close to Westvleteren12, just tripels and dubbels so far, which both seem to be best served by maintaining in the upper 60s. 

One thing I keep hearing is ferm temp control is vital; so to let it go ambient seems like a swear word in church.  I guess time will tell.   

[KCguy]

I really like to use yeastcalc dot com. That calculator hasn’t failed me yet.
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Not seeing that website...domain for sale it says?

edit - is this it?  http://www.yeastcalculator.com/yeastcalc.html

[coolman26]

Yes


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[Robert]

I really like to use yeastcalc dot com. That calculator hasn’t failed me yet.
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Not seeing that website...domain for sale it says?

edit - is this it?  http://www.yeastcalculator.com/yeastcalc.html

The calculator at Brewer's Friend is very similar in design, allowing you to plan several steps.  I haven't tried comparing how similar the results are.  Nor have I checked the documentation on the BF version to see if there's any ancestral relationship.

I think most calculators are unduly pessimistic about viability.   

The differences I spot right off with this and the BF calculator are that they offer options for different growth and aeration models, and BF also allows you to calculate based on dry yeast as well as liquid. 

Check 'em all out.  Thanks for pointing that one out, coolman.  That said, I don't think calculators are all that important, especially since were not really testing viability or doing cell counts.  Which may not be that important either.  But they can help you initially to develop a standard procedure of your own that you'll ultimately  make intuitive.   Like, hey, it seems this volume always works for this kind of beer, but maybe I'll add a bit more this time because it's winter... whatever works.