Author Topic: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning  (Read 293 times)

Offline Matt L

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Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« on: July 02, 2019, 07:02:30 PM »
I decided to get experimental with flaked oats, steeping them to add into a blonde that is currently fermenting. My question regards cold crashing and it’s effect on bottle conditioning. As with most things in this hobby, I don’t know what questions to ask until it’s after the fact. Now that I know about the gelatin that comes from the oats, when would o need to cold crash to get it to sink to the trub? And will this then kill of the yeast before bottling? Would I then need to re-pitch yeast in each bottle? Just a little unclear.

Thank you!

Offline denny

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2019, 08:34:57 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.
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Offline Matt L

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2019, 09:12:00 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.

Another situation where I’ve gotten ahead of myself it seems! Not that I know if it makes a difference at this point, but the steep was held at 155° for 40m. But the starch you mentioned could certainly explain the 2” of cloud at the bottom of the carboy. It was an extract kit and the oats were steeped with some additional grains. Anything I can do at this point to salvage the batch?

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2019, 09:35:06 PM »
My understanding is that you need to have enzyme to convert the oats.

Flake oats are already gelatinized and ready for extract. Your temperature was about right. Your conversion time was fine. All you are missing is some barley for the enzyme.

As Denny said, you have unconverted starch in your beer and you might have a hard time to clarify it.

Your yeast will be just fine after cold crashing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 09:37:01 PM by Thirsty_Monk »
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Offline Matt L

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 10:37:01 PM »
My understanding is that you need to have enzyme to convert the oats.

Flake oats are already gelatinized and ready for extract. Your temperature was about right. Your conversion time was fine. All you are missing is some barley for the enzyme.

As Denny said, you have unconverted starch in your beer and you might have a hard time to clarify it.

Your yeast will be just fine after cold crashing.

Thank you for the clarification. As luck would have it, I actually added Whitelabs Clarity Ferm when I pitched the yeast with the intent of ending up with a gluten reduced beer. Might that do the trick?

Offline Robert

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 10:53:38 PM »
Clarity ferm deals with proteins, breaking certain peptide bonds, reducing the proline that contributes to both colloidal haze on chilling beer and issues for celiac sufferers.   You are dealing with a starch issue.  Raw adjunct grains need to be mashed with enzymatic base malts to convert the starch into fermentable sugar as well as to reduce certain proteins into forms that contribute to body and foam.  Since you have not done this, you just have a lot of raw starch floating around in there.  Not sure there's anything you can do about it at this point.  There will likely be a persistent starch haze in the beer.  My concern would be that this raw starch could provide a food source for certain bacteria and wild yeasts which are able to enzymatically convert starch to sugar on their own.  This could leave the beer highly susceptible to infection.  Next time remember, grains go in the mash, not the fermenter.   If you're not mashing, the only things you can utilize by simple steeping are crystal malts and some roast malts, but this too needs to be done prior to the hop boil.  Also, in your original post I'm not sure what you mean by gelatin from the oats.  Perhaps you misunderstand that flaked grains are "pre-gelatinized," that is pre cooked, which just means they have had the starch opened up so it can be accessed and converted by enzymes in the mash, without an additional first step of cooking the grain.
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Offline denny

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2019, 11:21:03 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.

Another situation where I’ve gotten ahead of myself it seems! Not that I know if it makes a difference at this point, but the steep was held at 155° for 40m. But the starch you mentioned could certainly explain the 2” of cloud at the bottom of the carboy. It was an extract kit and the oats were steeped with some additional grains. Anything I can do at this point to salvage the batch?

You have no enzymes there to convert the starch. 
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2019, 11:26:30 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.

*converted

‘Unconcerned’ starch must be converted so they’ll be a bit more ‘concerned’ about our beer. (Just couldn’t help myself I guess ).




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Offline Matt L

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2019, 11:50:01 PM »
Clarity ferm deals with proteins, breaking certain peptide bonds, reducing the proline that contributes to both colloidal haze on chilling beer and issues for celiac sufferers.   You are dealing with a starch issue.  Raw adjunct grains need to be mashed with enzymatic base malts to convert the starch into fermentable sugar as well as to reduce certain proteins into forms that contribute to body and foam.  Since you have not done this, you just have a lot of raw starch floating around in there.  Not sure there's anything you can do about it at this point.  There will likely be a persistent starch haze in the beer.  My concern would be that this raw starch could provide a food source for certain bacteria and wild yeasts which are able to enzymatically convert starch to sugar on their own.  This could leave the beer highly susceptible to infection.  Next time remember, grains go in the mash, not the fermenter.   If you're not mashing, the only things you can utilize by simple steeping are crystal malts and some roast malts, but this too needs to be done prior to the hop boil.  Also, in your original post I'm not sure what you mean by gelatin from the oats.  Perhaps you misunderstand that flaked grains are "pre-gelatinized," that is pre cooked, which just means they have had the starch opened up so it can be accessed and converted by enzymes in the mash, without an additional first step of cooking the grain.

I am officially in over my head, but I appreciate the clarification and explanation. I will be sure to not make this mistake again. As for the grain being raw, after steeping (which I am now also convinced I don’t fully grasp), it still all went into the boil. So my “steep” was maybe more similar to a partial mash, but the grains stayed in a bag and were removed prior to boil. Along with the .5lb of flaked oat, there was .5lb carapils and .25lb American crystal 40L. I haven’t been considering it a mash because I did not sparge the mixture (lack of equipment). This served as the base for the boil, with extract added at the start. 60m boil, then allowed to cool covered overnight. Pitched yeast and clarity ferm 8hrs later (Whitelabs San Diego Super Yeast) and saw activity after about 18hrs. Very active fermentation currently. Sorry for all the confusion, but again, I do greatly appreciate all the advice and clarification.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 11:56:52 PM by Matt L »

Offline Robert

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2019, 12:04:43 AM »
It wasn't a partial mash, it wasn't a mash at all, because there was no malt containing enzymes, unless you have left some details out.  Mashing is holding a base malt and water at the right temperature for the enzymes to convert starch to sugar.  Unmalted grain can go in with the malt in small portions and it will also be converted.  Steeping is a homebrew technique where ingredients which have already been processed so that they are made up of soluble sugar, like crystal malt, or have been essentially burnt in roasting so they no longer contain starch and protein and just add color and roast flavor, like black malt, are soaked in water.  They give up some of their sugar and color flavor to the water before the boil.  Soaking raw (unmalted) grain in water as you apparently did just makes starchy water.  Some brewing ingredients simply aren't suitable for extract or even partial mash brewing, and flaked oats is one. 

Hope your head stops spinning.  (When it does, you might start working g through a good book like Palmer's How to Brew.  Until.then, remember the mantra, RDWHAHB:  relax, don't worry,  have a homebrew.)
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Offline Megary

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2019, 12:29:15 AM »
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:32:01 AM by Megary »

Offline denny

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 02:39:39 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.

*converted

‘Unconcerned’ starch must be converted so they’ll be a bit more ‘concerned’ about our beer. (Just couldn’t help myself I guess ).




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 ;D. Damn autocorrect!
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Offline Robert

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2019, 02:41:25 PM »
One issue you're up against is that if you just steeped the oats, you now have a lot of unconcerned starch in your beer.

*converted

‘Unconcerned’ starch must be converted so they’ll be a bit more ‘concerned’ about our beer. (Just couldn’t help myself I guess ).




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 ;D. Damn autocorrect!
I try to call it "autocorrupt," but it usually won't let me. 
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Offline santoch

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2019, 06:46:46 PM »
I call it "auto-INcorrect".

I guess unconcerned starch would just be all like RDWHAHB.
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Offline Visor

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Re: Flaked Oat and bottle conditioning
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 10:15:49 PM »
   I can't help but wonder what AMG would do in this situation, it's definitely a glucose producing enzyme, just not sure if it would do much with crude starches. Might have to do an exbeeriment with unconverted starch and UltraFerm one of these days.
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